SitePoint播客＃138：Google的替代品是什么？

tech2023-12-14 28

Episode 138 of The SitePoint Podcast is now available! This week the panel is made up of Louis Simoneau (@rssaddict), Brad Williams (@williamsba), Stephan Segraves (@ssegraves and Patrick O’Keefe (@ifroggy).

SitePoint Podcast的第138集现已发布！本周的座谈会由Louis Simoneau( @rssaddict )，Brad Williams( @williamsba )，Stephan Segraves( @ssegraves和Patrick O'Keefe( @ifroggy ))组成。

下载此剧集 (Download this Episode)

You can download this episode as a standalone MP3 file. Here’s the link:

您可以将本集下载为独立的MP3文件。这是链接：

SitePoint Podcast #138: What’s The Alternative To Google? (MP3, 50:14, 48.2MB)

SitePoint播客＃138：Google的替代品是什么？ (MP3，50:14，48.2MB)

剧集摘要 (Episode Summary)

Here are the main topics covered in this episode:

以下是本集中介绍的主要主题：

HTML5 date Time element scrapped.

取消了HTML5日期时间元素。

HTML5 date Time element Rienstated.

HTML5日期时间元素已恢复。

Dodgy Coder: StackOverflow’s Programming Language Bias

狡猾的编码器：StackOverflow的编程语言偏见

Official Google Blog: Google+ Pages: connect with all the things you care about

Google官方博客：Google+信息页：与您关心的所有事物相关联

Google warns that rate limits, overage fees are coming to Maps API

谷歌警告称，限价，超额费用将用于Maps API

Google Maps in WebGL

WebGL中的Google Maps

Browse the full list of links referenced in the show at http://delicious.com/sitepointpodcast/138.

浏览http://delicious.com/sitepointpodcast/138中显示的参考链接的完整列表。

主持人聚光灯 (Host Spotlights)

Brad: Google Gravity

布拉德： Google Gravity

Patrick: SitePoint Podcast #1: The Economy

帕特里克： SitePoint播客1：经济

Louis: A Brief Rant on the Future of Interaction Design

路易：交互设计的未来简介

Stephan: Made by Hand

斯蒂芬：手工制作

面试成绩单 (Interview Transcript)

Louis: Hello and welcome to yet another episode of the SitePoint Podcast. We’re here this week with a full panel to discuss the past few weeks’ events in the world of the Web, so hi guys.

路易斯：您好，欢迎收看SitePoint播客的另一集。我们本周在这里有一个完整的小组来讨论Web世界中过去几周的活动，所以大家好。

Stephan: Howdy, howdy.

史蒂芬：你好，你好。

Patrick: Hello.

帕特里克：你好。

Brad: Hey-oh!

布拉德：嘿！

Louis: So this time is a bit special for a couple reasons, but first up, Brad and Patrick happen to be in the same room as we’re recording this.

路易斯：所以这次有一些特殊之处，原因有几个，但首先，布拉德和帕特里克正好在我们录制此照片的同一个房间里。

Patrick: That’s right.

帕特里克：是的。

Brad: Sadly.

布拉德：可悲。

Louis: (Laughs)

路易斯：(笑)

Patrick: Brad is kind enough to have me as a guest in his home.

帕特里克(Patrick)：布拉德(Brad)很友善，可以请我作为他的客人。

Louis: That’s terrifying (laughter).

路易斯：太恐怖了(笑声)。

Patrick: Yes.

帕特里克：是的。

Brad: Just a bit.

布拉德：一点点。

Louis: So there’s another reason why today’s show is a bit special, and I guess Brad can fill us in on why that is.

路易斯：所以还有另一个原因，为什么今天的演出有点特别，我想布拉德可以为我们解释为什么。

Brad: Yeah, so sadly this will actually be my last SitePoint Podcast that I’ll be doing, so I’ll be stepping away from the show.

布拉德：是的，很遗憾，这实际上是我将要做的最后一个SitePoint播客，因此我将退出演出。

Louis: Noooooooo!

路易斯：不！

Brad: I know.

布拉德：我知道。

Louis: I was just trying to add some drama, obviously we were aware before the show, but I want to — you know.

路易斯：我只是想增加一些戏剧性，显然我们在演出前就知道了，但是我想-你知道。

Stephan: I had no idea; what are you guys talking about? (Laughter)

史蒂芬：我不知道。你们在说什么？ (笑声)

Brad: Surprise! Yes, it’s true. Actually the day after, I’m sorry, the day the show is released will be three years and one day since our first episode, so if you can believe it or not we’ve been doing this for over three years, and I think the time’s come for me to kind of move on and try some different things, and I’ve certainly had a great time and I definitely hope you guys will have me back on, on occasion, if you need to someone to fill a seat or just want to hear my sexy voice I’ll be more than happy to come back on the show.

布拉德：惊讶！对，是真的。抱歉，实际上第二天放映的节目是从第一集开始的三年零一天，所以如果您可以相信，我们已经进行了三年多了，我想现在是时候让我继续尝试一些不同的事情了，我当然度过了愉快的时光，并且我绝对希望你们中的某人能重新回到我身边，如果您需要有人来填补座位或只想听到我性感的声音，我很乐意回到演出中。

Patrick: Yeah, well, Kevin said the same thing and you see how many times we’ve had him back on (laughter). You know I told Brad he’s going to need to get the tissue box for me here in case I get a little emotional, but —

帕特里克(Patrick)：是的，凯文(Kevin)说了同样的话，你会看到我们让他复活了多少次(笑)。您知道我告诉布拉德，如果我有点激动，他将需要在这里为我准备纸巾盒，但是-

Brad: We can hug it out.

布拉德：我们可以拥抱它。

Patrick: Yeah, I mean I always want to give a little history lesson for people like Brad was really the person who took the initiative to start the SitePoint Podcast, we have a forum post up in front of us here in the SitePoint Forums in the staff section from June 27, 2007 Brad just basically pushed the idea out there, he says, “I just wanted to get everyone’s thoughts on a SitePoint Podcast. It would take quite a bit of work to get it rolling, but with the knowledge just of the forums staff I’m sure we could make a very interesting show.” And so from that thread spawned months of discussions, and eventually Stephan and myself saying, hey, we’ll speak on this, we’ll participate, we won’t maybe do much more than that, but we’ll be glad to show up and speak and participate. And, yeah, we did a pilot together, us three, thereafter I believe, and then Kevin jumped on board, I don’t know, maybe the office needed some oversight or something, the SitePoint office, so Kevin was like yeah, okay, you guys finally got it to the finish line so let’s get it started and I’ll be a part of it, and you know we’ve won the .net Magazine Award, Podcast of the Year, like a year and a half ago, and, yeah, it’s been three years, 100-and however many episodes it’s been, and it’s been a great run and I’m going to miss having Brad’s perspective on the show and thankful for the opportunity to have got to know him better through the show.

帕特里克(Patrick)：是的，我的意思是，我一直想给像布拉德(Brad)那样的人真的是一个主动发起SitePoint Podcast的人上一堂历史课，在我们网站前面的SitePoint论坛中，我们前面有一个论坛帖子。他说：“我只是想让大家在SitePoint Podcast上发表自己的想法。” 要使其顺利进行，需要大量工作，但是仅凭论坛工作人员的知识，我相信我们可以做一个非常有趣的展览。” 因此，从那个话题中引发了数月的讨论，最终斯蒂芬和我自己说，嘿，我们将就此发言，我们将参加，我们可能不会做得更多，但我们很高兴展示起来说话并参与。是的，我们一起做过一个飞行员，我们三个，后来我相信，然后凯文跳槽了，我不知道，也许办公室需要一些监督或其他东西，SitePoint办公室，所以凯文就像是的，很好，你们终于把它推到了终点，所以让我们开始吧，我将成为其中的一份子，而且您知道我们像一年半以前已经赢得了年度Podcast的.net杂志奖。而且，是的，已经三年了，一百年了，不管它是多少集，这都是一个很棒的演出，我想念布拉德对演出的看法，并感谢有机会更好地了解他通过表演。

Brad: Yeah, it’s funny because a lot of people when I explain how the show started and most people don’t realize that it was over a year from the time of when we initially talked about it, and literally a year of forum threads back and forth just playing the show, and we did some test runs and we did some pilots and all that, so a year leading up just to that first episode, so there was a lot of work behind it. And it wasn’t just us, there was a lot of other people on the SitePoint Forums’ staff and the editors and getting people to help with articles, so there was a lot of people involved to make this show a reality, so it was extremely exciting to get that first episode out and just to look back and know that we’ve had three years of just a really successful show is something that I know we’re all very proud of. So I’ll certainly miss it and I’ll miss hanging out with you guys all the time, but like you said, we’ve all become pretty good friends from the show, even moreso than we were, so I know I’ll certainly see you guys around.

布拉德：是的，这很有趣，因为很多人在我解释节目的开始方式时，大多数人都没有意识到距我们最初谈论该节目已经有一年多的时间了，而实际上论坛的话题又回到了一年来回播放节目，我们进行了一些试运行，还进行了一些飞行员试验，所有这些，所以直到第一集开始的一年，所以背后还有很多工作。不仅是我们，SitePoint论坛的工作人员和编辑还有很多其他人，他们正在帮助人们撰写文章，所以有很多人参与使该展览成为现实，所以我很高兴能获得第一集，然后回头看看，我们已经三年了一次非常成功的演出，这让我都感到非常自豪。所以我当然会想念它的，我会一直想念与大家一起出去玩，但是就像你说的那样，我们已经从节目中成为了非常好的朋友，甚至比我们成为了，所以我知道我会当然可以看到你们周围的人。

Louis: Yeah, absolutely. I mean obviously from my perspective I’ve only been doing the show with you for a short while, but it’s been fantastic and it’s sad to see you go, but hopefully good things in the future for you, so, you know, all the best.

路易斯：是的，绝对。我明明是说从我的角度，我只是一直在跟你做节目很短的一段时间，但它已经太棒了，这是悲伤地看到你去，但希望美好的事物在未来的你，这样，你知道，所有的最好。

Stephan: We’ll miss you, Brad.

史蒂芬：布拉德，我们会想念你的。

Patrick: I was gonna say, Stephan, speak up, say something (laughter).

帕特里克：我要说，斯蒂芬，说出来，说点什么(众笑)。

Stephan: But we’ll really miss your Google Chrome comments, so, you know, I’m going to have to listen to Patrick tell me how great IE 8 is for the next however long (laughter).

斯蒂芬：但是，我们真的会想念您对Google Chrome的评论，所以，您将不得不听Patrick告诉我，无论下一个多么漫长的时间(笑声)，IE 8都将是多么出色。

Patrick: Yay!

帕特里克：是的！

Brad: I’m going to wait until he’s asleep tonight and install Chrome on his computer (laughter).

布拉德：我要等到他今晚睡着，然后在他的电脑上安装Chrome(笑)。

Stephan: But it’s been fun, it’s been a good three years.

史蒂芬：但这很有趣，已经过了三年了。

Patrick: Yeah, and on that note we were just at WordCamp Philly, that’s what brought me to Philadelphia, Brad is one of the co-organizers of WordCamp Philly; WordCamps are conferences focused on WordPress if you’re not familiar, and we met two, not just one but two SitePoint Podcast listeners at the event which is a good size event but it’s not thousands of people, it’s a few hundred, a very large WordCamp, and we had not just one but two listeners and that was pretty cool as well. And I think with that we can get right into the, uh, with the stories.

帕特里克(Patrick)：是的，就此而言，我们只是在WordCamp Philly，这就是把我带到费城的原因，Brad是WordCamp Philly的联合组织者之一。如果您不熟悉，WordCamps是针对WordPress的会议，我们在活动中遇到了两个，不仅是一个，而且是两个SitePoint Podcast侦听器，这是一个规模很大的活动，但不是数千人，只有几百个，非常大WordCamp，我们不仅有一个侦听器，而且还有两个侦听器，这也很酷。而且我认为，我们可以直接进入这些故事。

Brad: Let’s do it.

布拉德：开始吧。

Louis: Right. So I’ll kick it off this week, my first story it’s a Google related story which seems to happen a lot, and I know we’ll probably have some more Google stories on the show today. This was an announcement by Google about two weeks ago now, but it was definitely after we did the last panel show, Google will be introducing rate limits and overage fees to the Google Maps API which is something I know a lot of web developers and designers use in their sites and in client sites, so that could definitely have an impact. So what they said is that, bum, bum, bum, as of the new year I think, so in January 2012, there will be a limit placed on the use of the maps API to 25,000 map loads per day, and with a fee of $4.00 per thousand loads in excess of that limit.

路易斯：对。因此，本周我将开始揭开序幕，我的第一个故事是与Google相关的故事，而且似乎经常发生，而且我知道今天的节目可能还会有更多Google故事。这是Google大约在两周前宣布的消息，但绝对是在我们进行了最后一次面板展示之后，Google将向Google Maps API引入费率限制和超额费用，这是我认识的许多Web开发人员和设计师在其网站和客户网站中使用，因此肯定会产生影响。所以他们说的是，我认为是新年，所以在2012年1月，每天使用Maps API的限制为25,000次地图加载，并且收取一定费用每超出此限制的一千次加载$ 4.00。

Brad: Yeah, my initial reaction is this is going to make Google quite a bit of money because I know a lot of sites that use Google maps that I’m sure blow away that limit, 25,000 is not that many map loads per day.

布拉德：是的，我的最初React是，这将使Google赚很多钱，因为我知道很多使用Google地图的网站都可以突破这个限制，每天有25,000个这样的地图并不是很多。

Louis: Yeah, it’s pretty significant. I mean so there’s been obviously a pretty vocal reaction in blogs and on Twitter to this announcement, but at the same time to me at least it doesn’t seem totally unreasonable, we’re talking about a couple of dollars a day maybe if you’re exceeding that limit, and a lot of small, you know, the smaller sites that are sort of like if you’re a site for a restaurant or for a local business and you just have a map in your page to point people to your location that’s not going to affect you. So, I don’t know, it doesn’t seem like that huge a deal to me at least, and it certainly seems fair if they’ve got a service that’s good enough that everyone will keep using it even though it’s paid, and I think that will be the case; it doesn’t strike me as unreasonable for them to try and recoup some money on it.

路易斯：是的，这很重要。我的意思是这样，显然，博客和Twitter上对这一宣布都有相当大的声音回应，但同时对我而言，至少这似乎并不完全不合理，我们谈论的是一天几美元，如果您超过了这个限制，还有很多小型网站，就像您是餐馆或当地企业的网站，而您的页面中只有一张地图可以将人们指向您的位置不会影响您。因此，我不知道，至少对我来说这并不是什么大不了的事，而且如果他们提供的服务足够好，即使有人付费，每个人都将继续使用它，这当然是公平的。我认为情况将会如此；让他们尝试从中收回一些钱，这对我来说并不算不合理。

Brad: It’s funny because with Google Maps the API version 3 they actually removed the API key requirement which seems odd now that they’re looking to go back and charge where they probably will need some type of API key to validate that the person has an actual account and is in good standing with their bill.

布拉德：这很有趣，因为在Google Maps API版本3中，他们实际上删除了API密钥要求，这似乎很奇怪，因为他们希望回去充电，他们可能需要某种类型的API密钥来验证此人是否具有实际帐户，并且账单信誉良好。

Louis: Yeah, that’s interesting actually; I hadn’t looked at the version 3 of the API so I wasn’t aware that they’d removed the API key.

路易斯：是的，这实际上很有趣。我没有看过API的第3版，所以我不知道他们已经删除了API密钥。

Brad: Yeah, yeah, so I don’t know if they’re bringing that back or if they have some other method of paying it, but you’re right, I mean with the smaller sites, the local mom and pops sites finding their store or even smaller retail stores, even if they’re a small chain they have find the local or the closest dealer near you, or whatever it may be; they probably won’t hit the limit but, again, 25,000 that’s not that many views if it’s a significant feature on your site, so it’s definitely something people are going to have to be aware of. I mean how long have maps been around, for a long time now, so I’m sure a lot of people are going to get struck that don’t realize this is coming and all of a sudden their map stops working halfway through the day and they don’t know why, and then they’re going to find out and be very shocked that to keep their maps running on a daily basis that might cost them a few hundred dollars.

布拉德：是的，是的，所以我不知道他们是否正在将其收回，或者他们是否有其他付款方式，但是您是对的，我的意思是在较小的网站上，当地的妈妈和流行音乐网站发现他们的商店或什至较小的零售商店，即使它们是小型连锁店，也可以找到您附近的当地或最近的经销商，或者可能是什么；他们可能不会达到极限，但是，如果它是您网站上的重要功能，那么再次提供25,000次浏览就不是很多，因此，这肯定是人们必须意识到的事情。我的意思是，地图已经存在了很长时间了，所以很确定，所以我敢肯定很多人会因为不知道地图即将到来而感到震惊，他们的地图突然中途停止运作他们不知道为什么，然后他们发现并感到震惊的是，每天保持地图运行可能要花费几百美元。

Stephan: And I’m wondering, too, like when you look at this, when you look at Google Maps, they have the ads on maps.google.com, they have the ads, the feature places, or whatever they call it, so was that not enough you think then to subsidize this or do they just see this as another revenue stream like on top of that? I wonder what the thinking was because, like you said, it’s going to be kind of a shock for people who maybe don’t follow all the Google news, it’s going to be one day their maps aren’t going to work and be like “What the heck is going on?!”

斯蒂芬：我也想知道，就像当您查看此内容时，当您查看Google地图时，他们在maps.google.com上投放广告，他们在广告，地图集上或他们称之为的东西一样，难道您认为当时没有足够的资金来补贴这笔费用，或者他们只是将其视为另一种收入来源吗？我想知道是怎么回事，因为就像您说的那样，这对于可能不了解所有Google新闻的人来说将是一种震惊，这将是一天他们的地图无法正常使用， “到底他妈发生了什么？！”

Louis: Yeah, it is interesting, because as you say there is already sort of a revenue stream involved in Google Maps, and you’d think that getting maps out in front of the most people possible is only going to increase that ad revenue regardless of any other money they could make on it, but maybe somebody sat back, looked at the numbers and said you know, look, this is costing us more than it’s bringing in because a lot of people are using it for other purposes that don’t really tie into advertising, that aren’t based on search, that are really just, you know, I can’t even come up with any examples, but, you know, tying into different applications that you really can’t monetize, and maybe said, look, if we lose a couple users it won’t be a big deal because we would make a little bit of extra money to cover costs and be able to keep growing the capacity. Speaking of which, though, what are the alternatives if someone was using Google Maps and putting through, you know, let’s say tens of thousands of requests a day and doesn’t want to spend this extra? So we’re talking let’s say you go over the cap by let’s say you do 30,000 a day, that’s an extra 5,000, so that’s $20.00 a day so that’s not insignificant, that’s $600.00 a month.

路易斯：是的，很有趣，因为正如您所说，Google地图已经涉及某种收入流，并且您认为将地图展示在尽可能多的人面前只会增加广告收入他们可以从中赚钱的其他钱，但也许有人坐下来，看了看数字，然后说，你知道，看，这使我们付出了比带来的更多的代价，因为许多人将其用于其他目的而不是确实与广告无关，不是基于搜索，实际上仅仅是，您知道，我什至都无法拿出任何示例，但是，您知道，绑定到您确实无法获利的不同应用程序中，也许有人说，看，如果我们失去了几个用户，那不会有什么大不了的，因为我们会多赚一些钱来支付成本并保持容量的增长。不过，说到其中，如果有人使用Google Maps并处理了每天不计其数的请求，而又不想花费额外的费用，那有什么选择呢？因此，我们说的是您超出上限，即说您每天要完成30,000个，这是额外的5,000个，因此，这是每天20.00美元，所以这并不是微不足道的，每月600美元。

Brad: I don’t know of any other map platform that’s even close to same level, obviously there are sites like MapQuest which at one point was the standard, and Google Maps pretty much flew by them and I think now they’re playing catch up. They do have an API but, again, I don’t think it’s been seen as a real alternative, however, like you said now with the charging that certainly could be. Going back to what you said about utilizing Google Maps where you’re not getting those ads and things, you know we’ve set up a lot of sites where we use reverse geolocation to get longitude and latitude for addresses, and you can actually do that through the API where you simply send Google Maps an address and it will send back a longitude and latitude coordinates; prior to that I didn’t know of any free service that did that, everything we could find was a paid service and Google was the first one that I knew of that did it for free which was great for us, but I expected at some point they were probably going to start charging for stuff like that because it’s a pretty valuable tool to have.

布拉德：我不知道还有其他哪个地图平台都接近同一水平，很明显有像MapQuest这样的网站曾经是标准，而Google Maps几乎飞过他们，我想现在他们正在追赶向上。他们确实有一个API，但是，我不认为这是一个真正的选择，但是，就像您现在所说的那样，收费肯定是可以的。回到您所说的利用Google Maps的方式(您没有得到这些广告和东西)，您知道我们已经建立了许多站点，在这些站点中我们使用反向地理位置来获取地址的经度和纬度，您实际上可以做到通过API，您只需向Google Maps发送地址，它就会发回经度和纬度坐标；在此之前，我还不知道有任何免费服务可以做到这一点，我们所能找到的一切都是付费服务，而Google是我所知道的第一个免费服务，这对我们来说非常好，但是我期望一点，他们可能会开始收取诸如此类的费用，因为这是一个非常有价值的工具。

Louis: Yeah. I’m having a look at the Bing maps at the moment, I’m just sort of scrolling around a map of Melbourne on Bing, and, ah (laughs), let’s just say it’s okay, it’s not great, I’m not seeing some of the stuff I’d like to see, it feels a little sluggish, can’t click on a train station and get the train times which you can in Google Maps. I’m not seeing traffic information available, it seems a bit limited, so yeah, maybe there’s an opportunity for some other player in the market to step up and try and wrest a bit of control away from Google.

路易斯：是的。我现在正在查看Bing地图，只是在Bing上的墨尔本地图上滚动，嗯(笑)，我们只能说这还可以，不是很好，我不是看到一些我想看的东西，感觉有点呆滞，无法单击火车站并获得可以在Google Maps中获得的火车时间。我没有看到可用的路况信息，似乎有点限制，所以是的，也许市场上其他一些参与者有机会加紧努力，试图从Google手中夺走一些控制权。

Stephan: Which I guess kind of we can tie in to what I’m going to talk about. Did anyone else notice that they changed Google Maps as well? Now you have the option to do the new vector stuff if you’re in Chrome, and I’ve noticed it to be nothing but a problem lately, it is really, really slow, and in their press release they said oh this is going to make it so much faster, maps are gonna load, and yeah it looks like it loads faster because the tiles don’t all have to load, but you still got to wait until all the vector stuff to fill your browser, it just drags and drags and drags.

斯蒂芬：我想我们可以将其与我要谈论的内容联系起来。还有其他人注意到他们也改变了Google地图吗？现在，如果您使用的是Chrome浏览器，则可以选择执行新的矢量处理，而且我最近注意到它只是一个问题，它确实非常缓慢，并且在他们的新闻稿中他们说，哦，这将会继续为了使其更快，要加载地图，是的，它看起来加载得更快，因为并不需要全部加载图块，但是您仍然必须等到所有矢量填充到浏览器中之后，它才会拖动并一拖再拖。

Louis: So I noticed this a while back because they rolled out the vector version of Google Maps to Android probably almost a year ago at this point, and I remember on Android working on a 3G connection it was a massive improvement over the tiles because if you were in a sort of spotty reception zone on 3G trying to get these tiles to load it was horrendous, but getting the vector maps was great. I don’t think I actually — oh, wait, does it want to try something new, is that what this button is?

路易斯：所以我注意到了这一点，因为他们大概在一年前就将Google Maps的矢量版本推广到了Android，并且我记得在进行3G连接的Android上，这是对图块的巨大改进，因为如果您当时在3G上的接收区有些杂乱，试图让这些图块加载非常可怕，但是获得矢量图很棒。我认为我实际上不是-哦，等等，它想尝试新的东西吗，这个按钮是什么吗？

Stephan: Yeah, yeah.

斯蒂芬：是的，是的。

Louis: Alright, I bet that’s what it is (laughs), I hadn’t even noticed that.

路易斯：好吧，我敢打赌这就是事实(笑)，我什至没有注意到。

Stephan: That’s the one (laughs).

史蒂芬：那是(笑)。

Louis: Let’s click on this and see what happens. Alright, it looks superficially the same and if I do a bit of zooming —

路易斯：让我们单击一下，看看会发生什么。好吧，表面上看起来是一样的，如果我做一点缩放，

Patrick: Is this only in Chrome?

帕特里克：这仅在Chrome浏览器中吗？

Stephan: I believe so, yeah. Actually I think it’s any browser that can support the vector images.

斯蒂芬：我相信，是的。实际上，我认为这是可以支持矢量图像的任何浏览器。

Louis: So is this all done in WebGL or something like that?

路易斯：那么，这一切都是在WebGL中完成的吗？

Stephan: Yeah. Let me see if I can find the press release real quick.

斯蒂芬：是的。让我看看是否可以快速找到新闻稿。

Louis: It does seem — like I was just playing around with the tiled version a bit before, I think zooming in and out seems like it’s a little maybe slower, but when you scroll onto a new region of the map, like if you just pan the map —

路易斯：确实-好像我刚才在玩平铺版本时一样，我认为放大和缩小的过程似乎有点慢，但是当您滚动到地图的新区域时，就像平移地图-

Stephan: Oh, yeah, that part’s great.

斯蒂芬：哦，是的，那部分很棒。

Louis: And then everything is there, it just sort of gradually fills out the smaller side streets and adds the names gradually, so panning is a little bit better. Yeah, I think — I don’t think it’s necessarily better if you’re on broadband, I don’t think that would be the goal for them is to make it better for broadband users, I think it’s mostly going to save them bandwidth.

路易斯：然后一切都在那里，只是逐渐填充较小的小巷并逐渐添加名称，所以平移效果会好一些。是的，我想-如果您使用宽带，我认为这不一定会更好，我认为他们的目标不是让宽带用户更好，我认为这主要是为了节省带宽。

Stephan: Because they can preload the vector stuff.

史蒂芬：因为他们可以预加载矢量素材。

Louis: Well, I just think it’s a lot less data, I think sending vector information about how to draw the streets and what they’re called is a much smaller package than sending a bitmap of all these different resolutions of the map, right.

路易斯：嗯，我只是认为数据量少了很多，我认为发送有关如何绘制街道及其称呼的矢量信息比发送包含所有这些地图分辨率的位图的封装要小得多。

Stephan: Yeah.

斯蒂芬：是的。

Louis: So it probably saved some bandwidth and it’s also, you know, from experience I can say I had a better experience with it on a mobile broadband connection, but for a real — sorry, not a real (laughs) — for a ‘real’ Internet connection, no, but I mean if you’re plugged in in your house on a fast connection it probably won’t make a huge difference, and as you said it might be a little bit buggy still; they have the advantage in Android of being able to code it natively in the app whereas here they have to work within the browser so it might be a little trickier to work with.

路易斯：所以它可能节省了一些带宽，而且，从经验中我也可以说我在移动宽带连接上有更好的体验，但实际上-抱歉，不是真实的(笑)-对于“真实的互联网连接，不，但是我的意思是，如果您以快速连接的方式插入房屋，则可能不会产生太大的变化，而且正如您所说的那样，它仍然可能有一些问题。它们在Android中的优势在于能够在应用程序中进行本地编码，而在这里它们必须在浏览器中运行，因此使用起来可能会有些棘手。

Stephan: That explains it. Yeah, we can talk about the changes and get it out of the way, I mean if that’s cool with y’all. I mean so much for the rant, I was just gonna — (laughter). No, so we talked about the maps a little bit but there are some other big changes that have taken place over the last week, week and a half. The first is they’ve now introduced the new Google Mail interface, and they’ve also introduced the new Google Reader interface and its integration into Google+ which we can touch on more later I’m guessing, Patrick, because I think you have a story about that.

史蒂芬：这可以解释。是的，我们可以讨论这些更改并将其排除在外，我的意思是说你们觉得这很酷。我对the徒的意义如此重大，我只是-(笑声)。不，所以我们稍微讨论了一下地图，但是在过去一周，一周半的时间里，还发生了其他一些大变化。首先是他们现在已经引入了新的Google Mail界面，并且还引入了新的Google Reader界面及其与Google+的集成，我想稍后我们会介绍更多，Patrick，因为我认为您有一个关于这个的故事。

Patrick: Yes, sir.

帕特里克：是的，先生。

Stephan: I think from what I’ve — because I’ve played with it a lot, I’m usually in Gmail almost all day because it’s the way I keep in touch with some people around the world, and I usually don’t check my email on it and I’m usually just using it for the chat, but I’ve been using it the last week, the full week, and it’s been terribly slow, and I’m using Chrome, but it is astoundingly more responsive in Chrome than it is in Firefox, so in Firefox it’s almost unusable. So I was just wondering if you guys had the same experience if you’ve gotten the new look, because it’s optional, and what you think of it if you have, and then we’ll talk about Google Reader a little bit because it’s changed as well.

史蒂芬(Stephan)：我从自己的角度出发，因为我经常玩游戏，所以我通常整天都在Gmail中工作，因为这是我与世界各地的某些人保持联系的方式，而我通常不这样做检查我的电子邮件，我通常只是在聊天时使用它，但是上周(整整一周)我一直在使用它，而且运行速度非常慢，而且我使用的是Chrome，但令人惊讶的是， Chrome中的响应速度比Firefox中的响应速度快，因此在Firefox中几乎无法使用。所以我只是想知道你们是否拥有相同的体验，因为它是可选的，如果您有新的外观，您会如何看待它，然后我们再谈一点Google Reader，因为它已经改变了也一样

Brad: You know what’s weird is I have multiple Gmail accounts, one for work, one for personal, one for other things, and I have it on one of them but not the other ones which I thought was strange. You’d almost think if they know you have shared accounts or multiple accounts that you log into you’d think once they opened it up they would just kind of open it up to all of your accounts.

布拉德：您知道奇怪的是，我有多个Gmail帐户，一个用于工作，一个用于个人，一个用于其他用途，而我在其中一个帐户上却没有其他我认为很奇怪的帐户。您几乎会想，如果他们知道您拥有共享帐户或您登录的多个帐户，他们会在他们打开帐户后立即向所有帐户开放。

Stephan: Your accounts are linked, right?

史蒂芬：您的帐户已关联，对吗？

Brad: No, they’re not linked, they’re individual accounts, but I’m basically on a daily basis flipping back and forth between the new and old design which makes it almost even more confusing because I’m almost rather be stuck on the new one or go back to the old one. Like you said, I guess I could turn it off but I did want to play with it. It’s like anything else, when a new design comes out I’m always usually very critical at first, and I’ve been trying to get better at that over the years to where I give it a couple weeks, you know, give it two to four weeks before I start complaining about it just because I’ve noticed that it generally grows on me, so I’ve learned like just to kind of keep my mouth shut, use it for a while, and then if two to four weeks go by and I still don’t like it and there’s still some big problems with it then I’ll start getting kind of vocal, but it is definitely different and it’s certainly when you first see it, it blows you back a little bit. It’s clean; I don’t know if I noticed it being any slower for me necessarily.

布拉德：不，它们没有关联，是个人账户，但是我基本上每天都在新旧设计之间来回切换，这几乎使我更加困惑，因为我几乎被困住了在新的或旧的上。就像您说的，我想我可以将其关闭，但我确实想玩它。就像其他任何事情一样，当新设计问世时，我通常总是很关键，而多年来，我一直在努力做到这一点，直到我花了几个星期的时间，再给它两个我开始抱怨它的时间大约是四周，因为我注意到它通常会在我身上长出来，所以我学会了只是想保持嘴巴闭合，使用一段时间，然后两到四周过去，我仍然不喜欢它，仍然有一些大问题，然后我会开始发声，但这肯定是不同的，并且肯定是当您第一次看到它时，它使您感到有些反感。很干净我不知道我是否注意到它一定会变慢。

Stephan: And don’t get me wrong, it looks good, like it’s a nice looking design, but the biggest problem I’m having is with the chat window, the JavaScript effects that they’re using and stuff, it seems like they’re just — you go over to the left-hand side and an example is you have your different flags, you know, whatever they call them, tags for your email, and underneath it you have your chat window. Well, whenever you scroll over your tags it expands it, so if you have more than say 10 it shows you all of them, and if you do that enough it just seems like it just drags down the browser, like they have a real issue with something in there. And so I’ve — I don’t know, I mean it looks good but little things like this really they nag me because it’s stuff that should’ve been caught in my opinion.

斯蒂芬：别误会我，它看起来不错，就像它的外观很好看，但是我遇到的最大问题是聊天窗口，他们正在使用JavaScript效果以及类似的东西，好像他们只是-您转到左侧，例如，您有不同的标志，您知道，无论他们叫什么，都为您的电子邮件添加标签，并在其下方有您的聊天窗口。好吧，每当您滚动标签时，它都会展开它，因此，如果超过10个，它将显示所有标签，并且如果您做得足够多，就好像它拖了浏览器一样，就像它们确实存在问题一样里面有东西。所以，我-我不知道，我的意思是看起来不错，但是像这样的小事情确实让我讨厌，因为我认为应该注意到这些东西。

Louis: Yeah, there’s definitely — I have actually run into some actual bugs in the implementation. I was trying to do something yesterday and I’m going to try and see if I can recreate it. When you do a search for like email sent to a certain address and then you try and do the thing where you create a filter from this search, and once you create it I think it accidentally — it sort of pre-fills one of the text fields with undefined by accident.

路易斯：是的，肯定有-我实际上在实现过程中遇到了一些实际的错误。我昨天尝试做某事，然后尝试是否可以重新创建它。当您搜索发送到特定地址的类似电子邮件，然后尝试执行从搜索中创建过滤器的操作时，一旦创建该过滤器，我认为这是偶然的-它会预先填充其中一个文本意外定义的字段。

Stephan: Which makes you wonder what else is going on (laughter).

斯蒂芬：这让你想知道还有什么事情发生(笑声)。

Louis: Yeah, any filter that you create from a search because this word, ‘undefined’, gets added into the text field search the search basically doesn’t work as a filter because it’s looking for email that contains the word undefined, so I couldn’t find a way of actually working around that and getting a search based filter to work. So, yeah, it seems like it was rolled out a little faster than maybe it should’ve been, like the design, I agree with you it’s really slick but maybe a bit more time on quality assurance would’ve been nice.

路易斯：是的，您通过搜索创建的任何过滤器都是因为该单词“ undefined”被添加到了文本字段中，搜索基本上不能用作过滤器，因为它正在查找包含未定义词的电子邮件，因此我找不到解决该问题的方法，也无法找到基于搜索的过滤器。因此，是的，它的发布速度似乎比原本应该的要快一些，就像设计一样，我同意您的观点，它确实很光滑，但是也许在质量保证上花了更多的时间就不错了。

Stephan: Yeah. It’s a good looking change.

斯蒂芬：是的。这是一个很好的变化。

Louis: Here’s another thing, right, does everyone have it, has this been rolled out across the board or is it just to, like, us (laughs) as people that Google have identified as sort of early adopter types?

路易斯：这是另一回事，对吗，每个人都有吗，这是全面推出的吗？还是像我们(笑)一样被Google识别为早期采用者类型的人？

Stephan: I think that when I was reading the press release they said that they rolled it out so that it’s an option if you want to enable it on your account, and like Brad said it hasn’t hit his account yet so I don’t know, you know, maybe they’re doing it in phased releases but they said that everybody was going to have the ability to test it, to try it out.

史蒂芬：我认为当我阅读新闻稿时，他们说他们推出了它，因此如果您想在您的帐户上启用它，这是一个选择，就像布拉德所说的那样，还没有打到他的帐户，所以我不这样做。不知道，也许他们正在分阶段发布它，但是他们说每个人都将有能力对其进行测试并进行尝试。

Brad: Yeah, it hasn’t hit my main account but I’m anxious for it to because that’s the account I use 90% of the day, so that’s the one I’m really going to notice the little things that you’re mentioning. The other accounts I check them once maybe twice a day tops, so it’s not my main account so I’m anxious for that to happen. Overall it looks nice, but you’re right, I think there are some rough edges on it.

布拉德：是的，它还没有打到我的主帐户上，但是我为此感到焦虑，因为那是我一天中90％的时间都在使用的帐户，所以这就是我要真正注意到的小事情提及。我每天检查两次其他帐户，最多一次，所以这不是我的主要帐户，所以我很担心这种情况的发生。总体来说，它看起来不错，但是您说得对，我认为上面有一些粗糙的边缘。

Stephan: Well, so they’ve taken these changes too, the look, the general overall feel with these nice little CSS drop shadows on their buttons and stuff and moved it over to Google Reader as well and kind of really cleaned up that interface, and I actually don’t know if I like the Google Reader interface as much as I like the Gmail interface. The Reader interface is almost too white for me, I can’t tell where things begin and end, it’s very jumbled, so I was wondering if you guys used it. I don’t know; do you guys use Google Reader?

史蒂芬：嗯，所以他们也进行了这些更改，外观，总体感觉以及按钮和其他东西上的这些漂亮CSS阴影都将它们移到了Google Reader上，并且确实清理了该界面，而且我实际上不知道我是否像Gmail界面一样喜欢Google Reader界面。 Reader界面对我来说几乎是白色的，我无法分辨事物的开始和结束位置，它非常混乱，所以我想知道你们是否使用过它。我不知道; 你们使用Google Reader吗？

Louis: Yeah, absolutely. I like the way it looks, so in terms of the new design I’m a fan, I like the way the new buttons look, I like the way everything’s a little bit more consistent. You know Google interface design in the past different applications would have different icons to mean the same thing or buttons would be in different places, now everything seems really consistent across the application so I like that. What I don’t like about Reader, though, is the plus integration; before when you clicked on share on a story in Google Reader that sort of went to a public stream or page that you had of your shared items, and there was an RSS feed for that so you could pipe in your Google Reader shared items into your blog or whatever from this public RSS feed, and now the only option is plus-one something on Google+ which I think sort of takes away from some of the social features of Google Reader that it had as an independent application trying to tie it into plus which I haven’t really gotten on board with yet, I don’t know.

路易斯：是的，绝对。我喜欢它的外观，因此就新设计而言，我是一名粉丝，我喜欢新按钮的外观，我喜欢一切都更加一致的方式。您知道过去的Google界面设计中，不同的应用程序将具有不同的图标，以表示同一事物或按钮将位于不同的位置，现在，整个应用程序中的所有内容似乎都非常一致，所以我喜欢这一点。不过，我不喜欢Reader的是plus集成。在您单击Google阅读器中某个故事的共享之前，该共享已进入共享项目所拥有的公共信息流或页面，并且具有RSS提要，因此您可以将Google阅读器中的共享项目传送到您的共享项目中博客或此公共RSS提要中的任何内容，现在唯一的选择就是在Google+上加一个东西，我认为这有点脱离了它作为独立应用程序尝试将其与plus结合使用的Google Reader的一些社交功能我还不了解，我还不了解。

Stephan: No, I’m completely with you because my wife and I use Google Reader to kind of share things that we like or things that we think are interesting, like I’ll share — I’ll come across a lot of math stuff in my line of work so I’ll share it with her, and so it was an easy way because she didn’t have to — she just subscribed to my feed, my RSS that I had, right, that’s all she had to do, and now neither of us really want to use Google+ if we don’t have to. I’m not sold on Google+, yes I know they have an iPhone app, I don’t really — I don’t get it yet, I don’t find it to be useful in my day-to-day, and so what I’m trying to do now is put — you know you can do send to Delicious, so I’m creating an RSS feed for my Delicious account and then that’s how I’m going to share with her.

斯蒂芬：不，我完全支持您，因为我和妻子都使用Google阅读器来分享我们喜欢的东西或我们认为有趣的事情，例如我将要分享的东西–我会遇到很多数学方面的东西在我的工作范围中，所以我可以和她分享，这是一种简单的方法，因为她不必-她只订阅了我的feed，我的RSS，是的，这就是她要做的全部，现在我们两个都不需要使用Google+。我没有在Google+上出售产品，是的，我知道他们有一个iPhone应用程序，我还没有-我还没有得到它，我觉得它在日常工作中不起作用，因此我现在想做的就是放进去-您知道可以发送到Delicious，所以我要为Delicious帐户创建一个RSS feed，这就是我要与她共享的方式。

Louis: Right. The other thing I didn’t get is so let’s say I wanted to forgo this or to try and use Google+ to actually do the same thing, when someone plus-one’s something public like that does that go into their stream like visibly or is it only when you actually post it? And there doesn’t seem to be a link to actually post it, like is just the plus-one enough to share it to everyone; I don’t even know how this thing works.

路易斯：对。我没有得到的另一件事是，让我说我想放弃这一点，或者尝试使用Google+实际做同样的事情，当某人加某人这样的公共事物明显进入他们的信息流时，或者是仅在您实际发布时？而且似乎没有实际发布它的链接，就像一个足以将其分享给所有人的加号一样。我什至不知道这东西是怎么工作的。

Stephan: See I don’t either. I plus-one’d something but it wanted me to put in like comments about it. Well, I didn’t want to put in a comment about it; I just want to put it up there if I’m going to put it up there, right. That was the whole thing with share, like if I wanted to add a note about oh this is cool right here, look at this paragraph, I could. With this the implementation needs to be tweaked I think; Patrick, maybe you know, like the Plus-one how does that work?

史蒂芬：看我也不是。我加了一个东西，但它希望我对此发表一些评论。好吧，我不想对此发表评论。我只想把它放在那里，对。这就是分享的全部内容，例如，如果我想添加一条注释，哦，这很酷，请看一下本段。我认为需要对实现进行调整。帕特里克(Patrick)，也许您知道，像加号(Plus)一样，它是如何工作的？

Patrick: Well, if it works like the normal Plus-one button does on websites, what I have found is that it’ll only go into your stream if you add the comment, and if you don’t add the comment it’ll go to the plus-one’s section on your profile, so if you navigate to your Google+ profile page at the top there’s that gray bar that says post about photos, videos, if you have those enabled, and then plus-one’s, and that’s where it might appear. Now I don’t know if it factors into the front page in some other way, but I just tested it myself in Google Reader and did a plus-one with a comment and without a comment, and when you try to type the comment in you’ll notice that it adds your circles to the bottom of that comment where you can say public or you can add more people, so I do believe that is how it works.

帕特里克：好吧，如果它能像普通的加号按钮在网站上那样工作，我发现，只有添加评论，它才会进入您的信息流；如果不添加评论，它会进入您的信息流请转到个人资料上的加号部分，因此，如果您导航至顶部的Google+个人资料页面，则会出现一个灰色栏，上面写有关于照片，视频的信息(如果启用了这些信息)，然后是加号的内容，这就是它可能会出现。现在，我不知道它是否以其他某种方式进入首页，但是我只是在Google阅读器中亲自对其进行了测试，并做了一个带注释和不带注释的加号操作，以及当您尝试在其中键入注释时您会注意到，它会将您的圈子添加到该评论的底部，您可以在此处发表公开言论，也可以添加更多人，因此我相信这是这样的。

Louis: Yeah, so I just saw a testing here shared from Plus-one public, and the testing is the one with the comment?

路易：是的，所以我在这里看到了Plus-public共享的一项测试，该测试带有评论吗？

Patrick: Yes, sir.

帕特里克：是的，先生。

Louis: Right. See that annoys me. There’s no way like you just plus-one it without a comment I’d like to see those, and I’m not going to go to everybody’s individual profile to go and see what they’ve plus — anyway, I don’t like this thing.

路易斯：对。看到那使我烦恼。就像您没有评论一样，我只是想加一个，我想看看那些，而且我也不会去每个人的个人资料去查看他们的加成—无论如何，我不喜欢这东西。

Patrick: No, not at all. And Plus-one is going to factor into the search results I guess on Google.com, I guess like if I plus-one something and you search for that topic then it might be more likely to come up, but right now I don’t see that it’s relevant beyond that sort of thing so it kind of defeats, like you said, the purpose of sharing something through your stream.

帕特里克：不，一点也不。我想在Google.com上的搜索结果中会加上加一，我想如果我加一，而您搜索该主题，则可能会出现，但现在我不知道看不到它比那种事情更重要，所以就像您所说的那样，失败是为了通过流共享某些东西。

Stephan: Okay, so I can kind of understand them trying to integrate all their products, right, and trying to really bring out Google+ and make it some big feature thing that they love, but I don’t understand fixing a problem that doesn’t exist, right, why not leave share, why get rid of it completely? I don’t — it completely broke my workflow. And then there’s apps on my iPhone, so I use Reader, I don’t know if you guys are familiar, but it’s an RSS reader on the iPhone, so I download all my feeds before I get on an airplane, or whatever, and I read them on the plane and then it syncs back up when I land. And now this functionality is just gone, so since it was a folder all my shared items that were shared with me are just gone off my phone because when it syncs it says, hey, that folder no longer exists and it’s gone, which that’s ridiculous. Or am I just crazy?

史蒂芬：好的，所以我可以理解他们尝试整合所有产品的方法，并试图真正开发出Google+并使其成为他们喜欢的重要功能，但是我不明白如何解决无法解决的问题。不存在，对，为什么不留下份额，为什么要彻底摆脱份额呢？我不会-这完全破坏了我的工作流程。然后我的iPhone上有应用程序，所以我使用Reader，我不知道你们是否熟悉，但是它是iPhone上的RSS阅读器，因此我在上飞机之前下载了所有供稿，或其他。我在飞机上阅读它们，然后在降落时同步回去。现在该功能已消失，因此由于它是一个文件夹，所以与我共享的所有共享项目都已从我的手机上删除，因为同步时它会说，嘿，该文件夹不再存在，它已经消失了，这很荒谬。还是我只是疯了？

Louis: Yeah, I have to say not a fan either of the changes in functionality, like I said, I’m totally okay with the design change, like I said, I think it’s prettier, it’s cleaner, probably easier to use, but you know actually moving a functionality that people use then it was, you know, judging from comments I’ve seen it seemed to be a pretty popular feature of Google Reader because a lot of people complained about this.

路易斯：是的，我不必说功能的任何变化，就像我说的那样，我完全同意设计的变化，就像我说的那样，我认为它更漂亮，更干净，更容易使用，但是您知道实际上是在移动人们使用的功能，从我看到的评论来看，它似乎是Google阅读器的一个非常流行的功能，因为很多人对此表示抱怨。

Stephan: Yeah, if you read my Twitter stream it’s probably — if you guys read my Twitter stream when that came out it was kind of an eyeful (laughter).

史蒂芬：是的，如果您阅读了我的Twitter流，也许是-如果你们在发布时阅读了我的Twitter流，那是一种满眼的笑声。

Louis: So, again, what are the alternatives? I mean it seems like this is the ‘what are the alternatives to Google show’.

路易斯：那么，还有哪些选择？我的意思是，这似乎是“ Google节目的替代品”。

Stephan: Can we restart Bloglines, can that happen?

斯蒂芬：我们可以重新启动Bloglines吗，会发生这种情况吗？

Louis: Oh, boy.

路易斯：哦，男孩。

Patrick: Yeah, I used to use Bloglines too.

帕特里克：是的，我也曾经使用Bloglines。

Louis: I used to use Bloglines for sure, yeah.

路易斯：我以前肯定使用Bloglines，是的。

Brad: Dead pool.

布拉德：死池。

Patrick: I think we need to go in business (laughter), buy the brand, buy the trademark from I guess it was Ask, who owned Ask, um, gosh, I don’t even know, anyway, yeah.

帕特里克(Patrick)：我认为我们需要开展业务(笑声)，购买品牌，并从我那里买商标，我猜想是Ask(阿斯克)的所有者，嗯，天哪，我什至都不知道，是的。

Stephan: RIP Bloglines.

斯蒂芬： RIP Bloglines。

Patrick: Okay, cool, so before we go ahead and move on from all this Google stuff I did want to briefly mention that Google+ just launched pages on the social networking platforms. Now if you’re an organization, a business, a website, a celebrity, whatever, just like you might have a Facebook page you can now have a Google+ page. Previously Google discouraged businesses and organizations from creating a Google+ profile because it was meant for in their eyes individuals; now that is gone and you can create your own page right now at +.google.com/pages/create, so you can actually now promote your business on Google+ so get on that.

帕特里克(Patrick)：好的，很酷，所以在我们继续介绍所有Google内容之前，我确实想简单地提到Google+刚刚在社交网络平台上启动了页面。现在，如果您是组织，企业，网站，名人等，就像您可能拥有Facebook页面一样，现在就可以拥有Google+页面。以前，Google不鼓励企业和组织创建Google+个人资料，因为它是针对个人的。现在已经不复存在了，您可以立即在+ .google.com / pages / create上创建自己的页面，以便实际上可以在Google+上推广您的业务了。

Louis: So when does this become genuinely important for social media strategy? I know that Google+ is still kind of a fringe thing, it’s something that’s used by some nerds but not by the general public, so if you were advising a local business on their social media strategy, for example, you’d probably tell them you definitely want a Facebook page, you might tell them they want a Twitter page; do they want a Google+ page right away?

路易斯：那么，什么时候对社交媒体策略真正重要呢？我知道Google+仍然是一种边缘事物，有些书呆子使用了这种东西，但公众却没有使用它，因此，例如，如果您为当地企业的社交媒体策略提供建议，您可能会告诉他们您当然想要一个Facebook页面，您可以告诉他们他们想要一个Twitter页面；他们是否立即想要Google+信息页？

Patrick: Well, I would say beyond having the ability to update it I would say just go ahead and have one so that you can start building connections on that platform because I do believe that if you’re not already on there in some capacity as an individual or a business you should just go ahead and do it if you are in the business of engaging with your customers. So I do think it’s important to go ahead and be represented on the platform, I read an article on The Next Web by Drew Olanoff, and basically his overriding point was that Google+ pages are important because of Google’s overall product lineup and how they can or already have tied in to Google+ pages, for instance, they have Google Analytics so it’s not a far reach to say that they will offer better analytics. We talked about on a previous episode recently Twitter’s finally pushing out some analytics, I don’t think it’s available for everyone just yet, so Google has that capacity already in its arsenal and you could see that being rolled out, and then they have tools that could help with the CRM solution, so if people complain on Twitter it’s not something that you can just use Twitter to solve necessarily on a large scale, you need to use third party tools. But Google already has Google apps and they have Google Voice, and they can probably tie it in with another solution, so I guess the overriding theme there is that Google is so powerful and has so many complementary products already that it might represent a better experience for customer or brand interaction than you would receive otherwise on Twitter or Facebook, so I do think it’s a good idea to get on there and get started.

帕特里克：嗯，我要说的是，除了具有更新的能力以外，我想说的就是继续并拥有一个，以便您可以开始在该平台上建立连接，因为我确实相信，如果您尚未以某种能力在该平台上建立连接，对于个人或企业，如果您从事与客户互动的业务，就应该继续做下去。因此，我认为继续前进并在平台上进行展示很重要，我读了Drew Olanoff在The Next Web上发表的一篇文章，基本上他的主要观点是，由于Google的整体产品阵容以及它们的功能或方式，Google +页面非常重要已经绑定到Google+信息页了，例如，他们拥有Google Analytics(分析)，因此可以说他们将提供更好的分析结果并非遥不可及。我们最近在前一集中谈到，Twitter终于推出了一些分析功能，我认为尚不适合所有人使用，因此Google的武器库已经具备这种能力，您可以看到它已经推出，然后他们有了工具这可能会对CRM解决方案有所帮助，因此，如果人们在Twitter上抱怨，那您就不能仅使用Twitter来解决大规模问题，您需要使用第三方工具。但是Google已经拥有Google应用程序，并且拥有Google Voice，并且它们可能可以与其他解决方案结合使用，因此，我认为最重要的主题是Google功能强大且已经有很多互补产品，因此它可能代表更好的体验for customer or brand interaction than you would receive otherwise on Twitter or Facebook, so I do think it's a good idea to get on there and get started.

Louis: So are you using some kind of tool to cross post to Facebook and Google+? I notice that a lot of your posts seem to —

Brad: I asked him the same thing (laughter).

Patrick: Right now I’m not. I’m using TweetDeck for Twitter but for Facebook I’m posting manually right now, posting manually on my pages that I manage and on my profile, and the same for Google+ I’m posting manually on Google+ right now and I think it’s a good idea to do that at the moment with Facebook just because we have seen some drops in views for people using some of these automatic posting tools, and it’s maybe not 100% clear what the full cause of that is, I’ve heard that maybe it’s due to people blocking certain apps, but I know in my case I use Network Blogs Facebook app and that’s pretty popular and saw a drop in views and just shut it off and started posting manually and noticed an increase, so it may not be feasible for some enterprise people who work with a lot of different brands and pages, but if you’re just running a blog or you’re a small business or you just have a couple pages to manage, I would just say to go ahead and post directly at this time.

Patrick: Right now I'm not. I'm using TweetDeck for Twitter but for Facebook I'm posting manually right now, posting manually on my pages that I manage and on my profile, and the same for Google+ I'm posting manually on Google+ right now and I think it's a good idea to do that at the moment with Facebook just because we have seen some drops in views for people using some of these automatic posting tools, and it's maybe not 100% clear what the full cause of that is, I've heard that maybe it's due to people blocking certain apps, but I know in my case I use Network Blogs Facebook app and that's pretty popular and saw a drop in views and just shut it off and started posting manually and noticed an increase, so it may not be feasible for some enterprise people who work with a lot of different brands and pages, but if you're just running a blog or you're a small business or you just have a couple pages to manage, I would just say to go ahead and post directly at this time.

Louis: Oh, man, I am so sticking to code.

Patrick: Get out there, Louis, build that brand.

Louis: (Laughs) oh, no, man, there’s no — I mean you know.

Louis: (Laughs) oh, no, man, there's no — I mean you know.

Patrick: You know how long it took me to say your name correctly.

Louis: (Laughs)

路易斯：(笑)

Patrick: Now if you’re already a household name like you should be I would’ve already had that down.

Patrick: Now if you're already a household name like you should be I would've already had that down.

Louis: Look, yep, I guess that’s just the cost of not being willing to update more than one social network at a time. I’ll just sit back and wait for there to be a clear winner and then —

Louis: Look, yep, I guess that's just the cost of not being willing to update more than one social network at a time. I'll just sit back and wait for there to be a clear winner and then —

Brad: And then someone else will come up.

Louis: Uh, yeah, I guess there’s no win; Microsoft took them up with the social network, next. When is Bing+ coming out?

Louis: Uh, yeah, I guess there's no win; Microsoft took them up with the social network, next. When is Bing+ coming out?

Stephan: Hey, I’m still waiting for Orkut to take off.

Stephan: Hey, I'm still waiting for Orkut to take off.

Patrick: It depends on what country you’re from.

Patrick: It depends on what country you're from.

Louis: Yeah, it’s huge in Brazil, right, is that the one that everyone in Brazil uses?

Louis: Yeah, it's huge in Brazil, right, is that the one that everyone in Brazil uses?

Stephan: I think so, yeah.

Patrick: I think that sounds correct, yeah. I wouldn’t know Brazil particularly well.

Patrick: I think that sounds correct, yeah. I wouldn't know Brazil particularly well.

Louis: (Laughs) I don’t know why I found that funny, sorry; to all the listeners who are confused there’s no inside joke, it’s just (laughs) —

Louis: (Laughs) I don't know why I found that funny, sorry; to all the listeners who are confused there's no inside joke, it's just (laughs) —

Patrick: Just random laughter.

Louis: Yep.

路易斯：是的。

Brad: So my story there’s a really interesting post written by a guy by the name of Dodgy Coder, sorry Mr. Dodgy I could not find your real name, I looked all over your site, we’ll call him Mr. Coder for now, but he wrote a post about Stack Overflow which I thought was pretty interesting. So he basically had the impression that Stack Overflow was a little bit biased towards csharp.net developers because those are — C Sharp is the most tagged entry on Stack Overflow, so he decided to compare the rankings of the tag popularity on Stack Overflow with the leading language popularity indexed which he used the TIOBE Language Index. Any of you guys familiar with the TIOBE Index?

Brad: So my story there's a really interesting post written by a guy by the name of Dodgy Coder, sorry Mr. Dodgy I could not find your real name, I looked all over your site, we'll call him Mr. Coder for now, but he wrote a post about Stack Overflow which I thought was pretty interesting. So he basically had the impression that Stack Overflow was a little bit biased towards csharp.net developers because those are — C Sharp is the most tagged entry on Stack Overflow, so he decided to compare the rankings of the tag popularity on Stack Overflow with the leading language popularity indexed which he used the TIOBE Language Index. Any of you guys familiar with the TIOBE Index?

Louis: No.

路易斯：不。

Brad: So I wasn’t really either (laughter) so I looked it up, and basically it’s an indicator of the activity of a programming language. Now a lot of people think it’s the indicator of a programming language’s popularity, it’s not, it’s the activity across things like search engines, you know, how often is the word PHP mentioned. So it may signal that it is a popular language, it may signal that it’s a language that a lot of people are looking for help with, it may signal a lot of different things so that’s why there is some controversy around this language index.

Brad: So I wasn't really either (laughter) so I looked it up, and basically it's an indicator of the activity of a programming language. Now a lot of people think it's the indicator of a programming language's popularity, it's not, it's the activity across things like search engines, you know, how often is the word PHP mentioned. So it may signal that it is a popular language, it may signal that it's a language that a lot of people are looking for help with, it may signal a lot of different things so that's why there is some controversy around this language index.

Louis: So if a language is obscure but incredibly complicated it will generate a disproportionate amount of searches and therefore increase its TIOBE ranking?

Brad: It could. You could do that, yes, so it’s certainly not a scientific survey by any means, but it gives you kind of a guide to at least compare some other stats too. Now, whether it means anything who knows, but I thought this chart and these numbers were kind of interesting. So basically what he came up with is called the Stack Overflow Representation, and he gets these numbers by taking the — it represents ratio of the Stack Overflow tag count for each language as a percentage of the total questions divided by the TIOBE language Index percentage. So basically what this means is an overrepresentation of a particular language, so anything greater than 100% might mean there’s a greater number of questions on Stack Exchange than we would expect, and an underrepresentation of anything under 100% would mean there’s not as many questions as we would expect. So the thing that really strikes you when you look at this chart in this diagram is that the number one overrepresented programming language out there — and I’ll pause so our listeners can think about what their answer would be.

Brad: It could. You could do that, yes, so it's certainly not a scientific survey by any means, but it gives you kind of a guide to at least compare some other stats too. Now, whether it means anything who knows, but I thought this chart and these numbers were kind of interesting. So basically what he came up with is called the Stack Overflow Representation, and he gets these numbers by taking the — it represents ratio of the Stack Overflow tag count for each language as a percentage of the total questions divided by the TIOBE language Index percentage. So basically what this means is an overrepresentation of a particular language, so anything greater than 100% might mean there's a greater number of questions on Stack Exchange than we would expect, and an underrepresentation of anything under 100% would mean there's not as many questions as we would expect. So the thing that really strikes you when you look at this chart in this diagram is that the number one overrepresented programming language out there — and I'll pause so our listeners can think about what their answer would be.

Louis: A bit of a dramatic; can we fill in with some dramatic piano cues here?

Brad: Because we’re looking at this so we obviously know what it is.

Brad: Because we're looking at this so we obviously know what it is.

Stephan: Dun, dun, dun!

Louis: Thanks, Stephan.

Brad: The number one overrepresented language is JavaScript. So the big question is why is that? So on TIOBE JavaScript comes in at 2.19%.

Louis: I have a theory.

Brad: Stack Overflow percentage comes in at 6.3% which is an overrepresentation of — or a total representation of 293%.

Louis: I have a theory for that.

Brad: I would love to hear it, what’s your theory, Louis?

Brad: I would love to hear it, what's your theory, Louis?

Louis: Alright. Stack Overflow is a thing question and answer, anyone who’s not familiar with it go check it out because it’s a great place to find answers; there’s so many times when I find myself Googling a programming problem and the first result is a Stack Overflow of someone having exactly that problem, and it’s a voted question and answer for the response so it’s really good. Now, all these other programming languages are used by programmers, JavaScript being a front end language is going to be used by a lot of front end web designers who aren’t programmers and so probably might — or who are novices just getting into web design and want to do some basic JavaScript effects, and so who will be stumped more often by some, you know, maybe some basic programming concepts that anyone working with any one of these other languages would probably already have their head around, so that’s gonna be my theory.

路易斯：好吧。 Stack Overflow is a thing question and answer, anyone who's not familiar with it go check it out because it's a great place to find answers; there's so many times when I find myself Googling a programming problem and the first result is a Stack Overflow of someone having exactly that problem, and it's a voted question and answer for the response so it's really good. Now, all these other programming languages are used by programmers, JavaScript being a front end language is going to be used by a lot of front end web designers who aren't programmers and so probably might — or who are novices just getting into web design and want to do some basic JavaScript effects, and so who will be stumped more often by some, you know, maybe some basic programming concepts that anyone working with any one of these other languages would probably already have their head around, so that's gonna be my theory.

Brad: Yeah, I think you’re probably dead on it. Between that and the fact that even if you are familiar with JavaScript, in my opinion it’s a harder language to work with.

Brad: Yeah, I think you're probably dead on it. Between that and the fact that even if you are familiar with JavaScript, in my opinion it's a harder language to work with.

Louis: It’s also, yeah, it’s kind of a crap language (laughs).

Louis: It's also, yeah, it's kind of a crap language (laughs).

Brad: I’m sure some of our listeners are not going to agree with that.

Brad: I'm sure some of our listeners are not going to agree with that.

Louis: We’re going to get a bunch of angry emails about that, but alright, I’ll take it on, I’ll debate you.

Louis: We're going to get a bunch of angry emails about that, but alright, I'll take it on, I'll debate you.

Brad: I’ve definitely banged my head on the desk on some serious JavaScript issues over the years, so I’m not saying it’s the hardest but it’s definitely not the easiest.

Brad: I've definitely banged my head on the desk on some serious JavaScript issues over the years, so I'm not saying it's the hardest but it's definitely not the easiest.

Louis: There’s another point there, like you just mentioned banging your head against JavaScript issues, JavaScript is the only one of these where you’ll have different platforms for it to run on, right, JavaScript runs in a variety of browsers which have different implementations of the interpreter which isn’t the case for any one of these other languages; some of them have multiple interpreters available but they’re pretty consistent in their behavior so it’s probably less of an issue.

Louis: There's another point there, like you just mentioned banging your head against JavaScript issues, JavaScript is the only one of these where you'll have different platforms for it to run on, right, JavaScript runs in a variety of browsers which have different implementations of the interpreter which isn't the case for any one of these other languages; some of them have multiple interpreters available but they're pretty consistent in their behavior so it's probably less of an issue.

Brad: Yeah, and I was reading through some of the comments, there were some good points, some things to take into consideration are the age of the language, so the longer a language has been around the more resources are going to be available, books, resources online, blogs, whatever, forums, versus a new language where there’s not as much so there’s going to be a lot more searching for those languages, so those would probably be represented a little bit higher and especially a lot more questions asked. I thought it was interesting too that PHP was almost dead on, it’s 104%; Stack Overflow representation is almost exact to the TIOBE Language Index.

Brad: Yeah, and I was reading through some of the comments, there were some good points, some things to take into consideration are the age of the language, so the longer a language has been around the more resources are going to be available, books, resources online, blogs, whatever, forums, versus a new language where there's not as much so there's going to be a lot more searching for those languages, so those would probably be represented a little bit higher and especially a lot more questions asked. I thought it was interesting too that PHP was almost dead on, it's 104%; Stack Overflow representation is almost exact to the TIOBE Language Index.

Louis: Yeah, that’s interesting, and Ruby and Python are also very close to even. But an interesting fact there is that PHP, Ruby and Python are exactly the kinds of language you would think Stack Overflow would be helpful for, right, I mean a lot of people who do computer science or software engineering in school are going to learn C++ or Java, so they learned it in school and they’ve got their textbooks and they know how to do it, whereas PHP, Ruby and Python are largely web programming languages and a lot of the people using them are self-taught so that’s where those kind of resources really come into play.

Louis: Yeah, that's interesting, and Ruby and Python are also very close to even. But an interesting fact there is that PHP, Ruby and Python are exactly the kinds of language you would think Stack Overflow would be helpful for, right, I mean a lot of people who do computer science or software engineering in school are going to learn C++ or Java, so they learned it in school and they've got their textbooks and they know how to do it, whereas PHP, Ruby and Python are largely web programming languages and a lot of the people using them are self-taught so that's where those kind of resources really come into play.

Stephan: See I think there’s a slightly — I have a slight theory on all this, right. So India, right, which is a very large outsourcing area, the focus of languages there are Java and .net, and a lot of those folks are self-taught, even though they know theory they still teach themselves syntax and different functionality things, and so I think that plays into it a lot. And PHP after you’ve learned C++ or even .net for that matter, I think you could PHP or Ruby fairly easily in my opinion minus the syntax, so I think that plays into it a little bit, right, on the — what’s it called, the TIOBE reference, I don’t know, maybe I’m crazy.

Stephan: See I think there's a slightly — I have a slight theory on all this, right. So India, right, which is a very large outsourcing area, the focus of languages there are Java and .net, and a lot of those folks are self-taught, even though they know theory they still teach themselves syntax and different functionality things, and so I think that plays into it a lot. And PHP after you've learned C++ or even .net for that matter, I think you could PHP or Ruby fairly easily in my opinion minus the syntax, so I think that plays into it a little bit, right, on the — what's it called, the TIOBE reference, I don't know, maybe I'm crazy.

Brad: Yeah, I think you kind of have to take these stats with a grain of salt, but it is kind of interesting to talk about and kind of look at how some of the different languages stack up, and like I said, it’s not necessarily based on the popularity in the TIOBE Index, it’s based on the activity. So there obviously could be a lot of debate around why a particular language is being discussed more than another one, but it’s interesting so we’ll have the links in the show notes so you can check out some of these graphs that they have.

Brad: Yeah, I think you kind of have to take these stats with a grain of salt, but it is kind of interesting to talk about and kind of look at how some of the different languages stack up, and like I said, it's not necessarily based on the popularity in the TIOBE Index, it's based on the activity. So there obviously could be a lot of debate around why a particular language is being discussed more than another one, but it's interesting so we'll have the links in the show notes so you can check out some of these graphs that they have.

Louis: Yeah, absolutely. Cool. I had one last story for this week and it was sort of a brief, I don’t know how to describe it, a storm in a teacup I think, at the WHAT WorkingGroup concerning some new elements in HTML5. I don’t know if any of you caught wind of this furor on Twitter?

路易斯：是的，绝对。凉。 I had one last story for this week and it was sort of a brief, I don't know how to describe it, a storm in a teacup I think, at the WHAT WorkingGroup concerning some new elements in HTML5. I don't know if any of you caught wind of this furor on Twitter?

Stephan: Whoo-ooh-ooh.

Patrick: I felt a stiff cold breeze last night.

Stephan: There was another Hitler video on YouTube.

Louis: Oh, was there?

Stephan: No, I don’t know; furor, you said furor.

Stephan: No, I don't know; furor, you said furor.

Louis: Almost certainly. Oh, I meant like —

Patrick: Ahhhh! Boy.

Patrick: Ahhhh! 男孩。

Louis: Now I’ve got to find out if there was a Hitler video for this.

Louis: Now I've got to find out if there was a Hitler video for this.

Patrick: Terrible. Let’s go searching for the Hitler video.

Patrick: Terrible. Let's go searching for the Hitler video.

Louis: See how easy it is to sidetrack us.

Patrick: That’s how we prepare for every SitePoint Podcast, look for the new Hitler videos.

Patrick: That's how we prepare for every SitePoint Podcast, look for the new Hitler videos.

Louis: It does not appear that there was any of that downfall remix about Hitler finding out that the time element had been briefly removed from HTML5. So there’s a couple of great articles about this posted exactly a week apart on .net Magazine, so I’ll post links in the show notes, the first one is on October 31st HTML5 Scraps the Semantic Time Element. So if anyone was unaware, in the HTML5 spec there was this idea that you would have this time element, and the purpose of it would be to markup any kind of date or time, so if you’ve got a post you could put the, you know, October 31, 2011 inside a time element and then you have an attribute on the time element that allows you to put in a standardized representation of the UTC time in a machine readable format so that way a spider crawling your page could be able to read the time and not have to parse the actual language, it would just be able to look at the time element and say, oh, this was published on such and such a date. So it was an element that had garnered some usage already even though it wasn’t the final version of the spec, it was already being used by GitHub, it had been — it was in I think released versions of WordPress and Drupal was in the process of implementing or making use of the time element in their default themes. And then Ian Hickson who was the editor of the HTML5 spec at the WHAT Working Group decided to ditch it basically arguing that styling dates and times was not something that people did and its use wasn’t widespread enough so it just dropped it. A bunch of developers got up in arms about this so for the day it happened, I guess I don’t follow the same people on Twitter as you guys do because the day this happened my Twitter stream was full of everyone complaining about this decision, so all sorts of blogs came out against it so this blog post by Bruce Lawson, by Jeremy Keith; Jeremy Keith even went so far as to say look it doesn’t matter what the spec says it’s useful and the implementations are out there so just keep using it. And then a week later the decision was reverted so that change was rolled back, so it’s back, we’ve got time again in HTML5, so basically the outcome of this story is that nothing happened.

Louis: It does not appear that there was any of that downfall remix about Hitler finding out that the time element had been briefly removed from HTML5. So there's a couple of great articles about this posted exactly a week apart on .net Magazine, so I'll post links in the show notes, the first one is on October 31st HTML5 Scraps the Semantic Time Element. So if anyone was unaware, in the HTML5 spec there was this idea that you would have this time element, and the purpose of it would be to markup any kind of date or time, so if you've got a post you could put the, you know, October 31, 2011 inside a time element and then you have an attribute on the time element that allows you to put in a standardized representation of the UTC time in a machine readable format so that way a spider crawling your page could be able to read the time and not have to parse the actual language, it would just be able to look at the time element and say, oh, this was published on such and such a date. So it was an element that had garnered some usage already even though it wasn't the final version of the spec, it was already being used by GitHub, it had been — it was in I think released versions of WordPress and Drupal was in the process of implementing or making use of the time element in their default themes. And then Ian Hickson who was the editor of the HTML5 spec at the WHAT Working Group decided to ditch it basically arguing that styling dates and times was not something that people did and its use wasn't widespread enough so it just dropped it. A bunch of developers got up in arms about this so for the day it happened, I guess I don't follow the same people on Twitter as you guys do because the day this happened my Twitter stream was full of everyone complaining about this decision, so all sorts of blogs came out against it so this blog post by Bruce Lawson, by Jeremy Keith; Jeremy Keith even went so far as to say look it doesn't matter what the spec says it's useful and the implementations are out there so just keep using it. And then a week later the decision was reverted so that change was rolled back, so it's back, we've got time again in HTML5, so basically the outcome of this story is that nothing happened.

Patrick: That’s almost one of those stories that we could just say it doesn’t need to be mentioned, I don’t know, no, I’m just kidding, but it’s funny you mentioned the Twitter thing because I mean if it doesn’t get mentioned by like airlines, zombies or Diddy, you know, the three of us would normally have paid too much attention to it.

Patrick: That's almost one of those stories that we could just say it doesn't need to be mentioned, I don't know, no, I'm just kidding, but it's funny you mentioned the Twitter thing because I mean if it doesn't get mentioned by like airlines, zombies or Diddy, you know, the three of us would normally have paid too much attention to it.

Louis: (Laughs)

路易斯：(笑)

Patrick: So, yeah, I guess we do follow different people. Diddy did not bring up the HTML5 time element; oddly enough I guess it’s just not mainstream enough to go into that sort of press.

Patrick: So, yeah, I guess we do follow different people. Diddy did not bring up the HTML5 time element; oddly enough I guess it's just not mainstream enough to go into that sort of press.

Louis: Yeah, get it out in the mainstream press.

Patrick: But, yeah, is this how quickly they get rid of it and how quickly they can restore it? I mean I’m looking at the time, the dates on these articles, I guess it’s not that quick, October 31st and November 7th.

Patrick: But, yeah, is this how quickly they get rid of it and how quickly they can restore it? I mean I'm looking at the time, the dates on these articles, I guess it's not that quick, October 31st and November 7th.

Brad: That’s a week.

Brad: That's a week.

Patrick: I mean did they not have any discussion about removing it before they just came out and said, bam, it’s gone?

Patrick: I mean did they not have any discussion about removing it before they just came out and said, bam, it's gone?

Louis: Yeah, so here’s the thing with HTML5 and the WHAT Working Group, right, you guys will probably remember there was a very, very long period of time in the history of web development when the W3C was theoretically working on XHTML2 and they were often fantasy land working on this thing that no browser would ever implement because we couldn’t deliver it with the right mime type anyway.

Louis: Yeah, so here's the thing with HTML5 and the WHAT Working Group, right, you guys will probably remember there was a very, very long period of time in the history of web development when the W3C was theoretically working on XHTML2 and they were often fantasy land working on this thing that no browser would ever implement because we couldn't deliver it with the right mime type anyway.

Patrick: Right.

帕特里克：对。

Louis: And it had just completely stalled and nothing was being added to HTML and people were either using XHTML1.0 or HTML 4.01, and this was the state for many, many years and then some people at the W3C kind of got dissatisfied with that and formed this splinter group called the WHAT Working Group, the Web Hypertext Application Technology Working Group, something like that, and came up with the HTML5 spec very, very rapidly, and the reason for that is rather than this sort of consensus based approach, the committee sort of driven approach used by the W3C, they had sort of one editor who wrote the spec who was Ian Hickson and that allowed them to move a lot faster. So we saw the advantages of that workflow in the fact that it got us HTML5 a lot faster than we would have gotten it if it had been up to the W3C, but then last week we kind of saw the flip side of that is if Ian Hickson decides he doesn’t want something even if a bunch of people are using it and disagree with him he can just go ahead and drop it. In this case it so happened that the outroar was widespread enough that the decision was made to revert it. But even then looking through the mailing group, the mailing list, when the decision to revert it was made — and the initial argument was made on a technicality, it was made on sort of well the spec is already past the point when we shouldn’t be reverting features, not an argument from its value which is an argument that it’s too late to be removing elements.

Louis: And it had just completely stalled and nothing was being added to HTML and people were either using XHTML1.0 or HTML 4.01, and this was the state for many, many years and then some people at the W3C kind of got dissatisfied with that and formed this splinter group called the WHAT Working Group, the Web Hypertext Application Technology Working Group, something like that, and came up with the HTML5 spec very, very rapidly, and the reason for that is rather than this sort of consensus based approach, the committee sort of driven approach used by the W3C, they had sort of one editor who wrote the spec who was Ian Hickson and that allowed them to move a lot faster. So we saw the advantages of that workflow in the fact that it got us HTML5 a lot faster than we would have gotten it if it had been up to the W3C, but then last week we kind of saw the flip side of that is if Ian Hickson decides he doesn't want something even if a bunch of people are using it and disagree with him he can just go ahead and drop it. In this case it so happened that the outroar was widespread enough that the decision was made to revert it. But even then looking through the mailing group, the mailing list, when the decision to revert it was made — and the initial argument was made on a technicality, it was made on sort of well the spec is already past the point when we shouldn't be reverting features, not an argument from its value which is an argument that it's too late to be removing elements.

Brad: I think Ben Ward said it best when he Tweeted, “We may as well just consider replacing all HTML tags with derp!” (laughter).

Brad: I think Ben Ward said it best when he Tweeted, “We may as well just consider replacing all HTML tags with derp!” (笑声)。

Louis: Pretty much like that because the original argument I think from Ian Hickson was that we just wanted to use a data element, a generic data element that you would just put the machine readable version inside the tag and then have that do its thing, but the argument for time is that this is a one specific format, it’s really, really commonly used on the Web, it was easy to use, everyone understood it, you just, you know, put the element in there and it gives you a lot of extra flexibility. So it’s good to see that it’s back and it’s good to see that the developer community at large definitely has an influence on this, so people should definitely pay attention to what’s going on in these specs because if there’s something you disagree with you can get out there and convince a lot of people that it is a bad idea then it has an impact on what eventually goes into the spec.

Louis: Pretty much like that because the original argument I think from Ian Hickson was that we just wanted to use a data element, a generic data element that you would just put the machine readable version inside the tag and then have that do its thing, but the argument for time is that this is a one specific format, it's really, really commonly used on the Web, it was easy to use, everyone understood it, you just, you know, put the element in there and it gives you a lot of extra flexibility. So it's good to see that it's back and it's good to see that the developer community at large definitely has an influence on this, so people should definitely pay attention to what's going on in these specs because if there's something you disagree with you can get out there and convince a lot of people that it is a bad idea then it has an impact on what eventually goes into the spec.

Stephan: Keep calm and carry on.

Louis: (Laughs) so I guess that’s the end of that story.

Louis: (Laughs) so I guess that's the end of that story.

Brad: My spotlight is a fun little site by Mr. Doob called Google Gravity. It basically is a fun site that loads up what looks like to be the Google website homepage and then the page basically kind of all collapses down to the bottom of the screen and you can actually grab the various elements that have fallen and drag them around and slam them into other elements, and the search box is actually fully functional so you can search something, hit enter and the results will also fall down on the screen and fall into your pile of various elements. It’s kind of hard to describe but it’s one of those really fun sites to play with and waste a little bit of time on, so we’ll definitely have a link, that’s called Google Gravity.

Brad: My spotlight is a fun little site by Mr. Doob called Google Gravity. It basically is a fun site that loads up what looks like to be the Google website homepage and then the page basically kind of all collapses down to the bottom of the screen and you can actually grab the various elements that have fallen and drag them around and slam them into other elements, and the search box is actually fully functional so you can search something, hit enter and the results will also fall down on the screen and fall into your pile of various elements. It's kind of hard to describe but it's one of those really fun sites to play with and waste a little bit of time on, so we'll definitely have a link, that's called Google Gravity.

Louis: So do you know what the deal is with the tech here, is this all JavaScript, are these the actual elements moving around?

Brad: You know I was looking into the backend and I didn’t get far enough to figure that out, it looks like it might very well be.

Brad: You know I was looking into the backend and I didn't get far enough to figure that out, it looks like it might very well be.

Louis: It definitely looks like it, it looks like it’s not Flash, it’s definitely just all this stuff moving around which is pretty impressive.

Louis: It definitely looks like it, it looks like it's not Flash, it's definitely just all this stuff moving around which is pretty impressive.

Brad: Yeah, it’s certainly not Flash, it looks to be all JavaScript based, I was actually hoping it would be HTML5.

Brad: Yeah, it's certainly not Flash, it looks to be all JavaScript based, I was actually hoping it would be HTML5.

Patrick: I guess you guys all saw the dual barrel roll thing; I don’t think you could have missed it.

Patrick: I guess you guys all saw the dual barrel roll thing; I don't think you could have missed it.

Louis: Yeah, yeah.

Patrick: It’s not possible to miss it.

Patrick: It's not possible to miss it.

Brad: It was an obvious spotlight, I avoided that one.

Patrick: Right. And there was the one that led me to the one for more Google tricks.

帕特里克：对。 And there was the one that led me to the one for more Google tricks.

Brad: Easter eggs?

Patrick: Yeah, Easter eggs. And there was one, recursion, I don’t know if you saw that one, it’s a little subtle because recursion, according to Wikipedia, is the process of repeating items in a self-similar way so if you enter recursion into Google it asks ‘did you mean recursion’ and will always ask that.

Patrick: Yeah, Easter eggs. And there was one, recursion, I don't know if you saw that one, it's a little subtle because recursion, according to Wikipedia, is the process of repeating items in a self-similar way so if you enter recursion into Google it asks 'did you mean recursion' and will always ask that.

Louis: So, yeah, you click on did you mean and it just brings it back to the same page.

Patrick: Yeah.

帕特里克：是的。

Brad: So that’s funny, I didn’t realize my spotlight was Google based, but I guess that fit right in.

Brad: So that's funny, I didn't realize my spotlight was Google based, but I guess that fit right in.

Louis: That one’s definitely geekier than do a barrel roll. Stephan?

Louis: That one's definitely geekier than do a barrel roll. 斯蒂芬？

Stephan: So my spotlight is a series called Made by Hand, and it’s a bunch of videos and they’re kind of coming out in different pieces, and it’s basically documentaries, little mini documentaries about different things that are made by hand. The first one is about the distillery, it’s about a distillery, and then the second one’s about a knife maker and they’re just kind of interesting little videos and I’m into things that aren’t television that I can watch, so it’s cool.

Stephan: So my spotlight is a series called Made by Hand, and it's a bunch of videos and they're kind of coming out in different pieces, and it's basically documentaries, little mini documentaries about different things that are made by hand. The first one is about the distillery, it's about a distillery, and then the second one's about a knife maker and they're just kind of interesting little videos and I'm into things that aren't television that I can watch, so it's cool.

Louis: Very cool, I’ll check this out, these knives are just sort of I assume totally handmade.

Louis: Very cool, I'll check this out, these knives are just sort of I assume totally handmade.

Stephan: Totally handmade and when you listen to the guy’s story you would never think that he was going to become a knife maker.

Stephan: Totally handmade and when you listen to the guy's story you would never think that he was going to become a knife maker.

Louis: Well, you wouldn’t think that anyone would become a knife maker, right, it’s one of those professions that you think the last knife maker died in 1867 (laughter).

Louis: Well, you wouldn't think that anyone would become a knife maker, right, it's one of those professions that you think the last knife maker died in 1867 (laughter).

Stephan: Well, what’s funny, and I’ll have to find the video, is that this isn’t the first video I’ve seen about a knife maker.

Stephan: Well, what's funny, and I'll have to find the video, is that this isn't the first video I've seen about a knife maker.

Louis: (Laughs)

路易斯：(笑)

Stephan: There’s another one and it was actually really well done as well, and he talks — this guy makes like $5,000 knives, so interesting stuff.

Stephan: There's another one and it was actually really well done as well, and he talks — this guy makes like $5,000 knives, so interesting stuff.

Patrick: But where is the video for the guy who you wouldn’t think would have became a murderer with knives but then went ahead and did it (laughs), where’s his bio?

Patrick: But where is the video for the guy who you wouldn't think would have became a murderer with knives but then went ahead and did it (laughs), where's his bio?

Stephan: That’s on MSNBC at night, you know; To Catch a Predator.

Stephan: That's on MSNBC at night, you know; To Catch a Predator.

Patrick: Very good, very good. No, no, I was just commenting on Brad’s but I can see how you would say that.

帕特里克：很好，很好。 No, no, I was just commenting on Brad's but I can see how you would say that.

Brad: You were trying to sneak half a spotlight in there.

Louis: So my spotlight this week it was a hard pick, there was actually a couple of things I wanted to spotlight on, but the other one hopefully it will come up in the interview show next week, that’s all the spoiler I’m going to give for that so we’ll see what happens there. So the one I found was this post on worrydream.com which is the personal website of an interaction designer called Brett Victor. And it’s sort of this really — it’s just a rant in response to a YouTube video, I don’t know if you guys saw this video but it was sort of — it’s called Productivity Future Vision, it did the rounds on Twitter a couple of weeks ago and it’s sort of animation video of a bunch of futuristic user interfaces, people with all these kinds of crazy digital magazines in their hotel room. It’s this business woman showing up for a meeting and doing all her preparation in her office, in her hotel room with all these kind of fancy interfaces that don’t exist yet and that have been cleverly animated, so it’s a pretty impressive video, it’s worth having a look at. But what I was really interested in is all the points raised by Brett in response to it, sort of saying these are all sort of unimaginative interfaces, right, because they’re all sort of this sort of pictures behind glass on a screen where all you can do is swipe, basically it’s the one thing that we do, and he has this really nicely illustrated rant which is super well designed, so it’s not really just a blog post because he’s got illustrations and pictures and it’s really its own website covering all his points about how we can do better in terms of interface design and build things that are really tactile. So I thought it was a really interesting read so that’s my spotlight.

Louis: So my spotlight this week it was a hard pick, there was actually a couple of things I wanted to spotlight on, but the other one hopefully it will come up in the interview show next week, that's all the spoiler I'm going to give for that so we'll see what happens there. So the one I found was this post on worrydream.com which is the personal website of an interaction designer called Brett Victor. And it's sort of this really — it's just a rant in response to a YouTube video, I don't know if you guys saw this video but it was sort of — it's called Productivity Future Vision, it did the rounds on Twitter a couple of weeks ago and it's sort of animation video of a bunch of futuristic user interfaces, people with all these kinds of crazy digital magazines in their hotel room. It's this business woman showing up for a meeting and doing all her preparation in her office, in her hotel room with all these kind of fancy interfaces that don't exist yet and that have been cleverly animated, so it's a pretty impressive video, it's worth having a look at. But what I was really interested in is all the points raised by Brett in response to it, sort of saying these are all sort of unimaginative interfaces, right, because they're all sort of this sort of pictures behind glass on a screen where all you can do is swipe, basically it's the one thing that we do, and he has this really nicely illustrated rant which is super well designed, so it's not really just a blog post because he's got illustrations and pictures and it's really its own website covering all his points about how we can do better in terms of interface design and build things that are really tactile. So I thought it was a really interesting read so that's my spotlight.

Patrick: Cool, very cool, yeah, that’s a handmade blog post right there.

Patrick: Cool, very cool, yeah, that's a handmade blog post right there.

Louis: Yeah, that’s one of the things that impressed me was you know there’s been so much care put into making the thing pretty, so it goes beyond a blog post, it’s like a, you know, a full-on sort of magazine article with layout and pictures and all that.

Louis: Yeah, that's one of the things that impressed me was you know there's been so much care put into making the thing pretty, so it goes beyond a blog post, it's like a, you know, a full-on sort of magazine article with layout and pictures and all that.

Patrick: Cool. So if Brad wasn’t leaving today my spotlight probably would have been Heavy D related because Heavy D the rapper just passed away today, RIP Heavy D. Go check out the You Can’t See What I Can See music video. But since Brad is leaving I have to give it to something else, see what I did right there, no. So my spotlight is the first episode of the SitePoint Podcast, SitePoint Podcast #1, The Economy. And I think Brad was like you shouldn’t put that out there, that might not be our greatest moment, but, it’s important to know where you have been so, yeah, I would definitely encourage all listeners to take a look at the first episode of the SitePoint Podcast released on November 10, 2008, and I think as Brad said this show is going to be coming out on November 11, 2011, so three years and one day later and, yeah, you can see what it was like at the very beginning when we just got started, pushed on by Brad but with us along for the ride as well.

帕特里克：酷。 So if Brad wasn't leaving today my spotlight probably would have been Heavy D related because Heavy D the rapper just passed away today, RIP Heavy D. Go check out the You Can't See What I Can See music video. But since Brad is leaving I have to give it to something else, see what I did right there, no. So my spotlight is the first episode of the SitePoint Podcast, SitePoint Podcast #1, The Economy. And I think Brad was like you shouldn't put that out there, that might not be our greatest moment, but, it's important to know where you have been so, yeah, I would definitely encourage all listeners to take a look at the first episode of the SitePoint Podcast released on November 10, 2008, and I think as Brad said this show is going to be coming out on November 11, 2011, so three years and one day later and, yeah, you can see what it was like at the very beginning when we just got started, pushed on by Brad but with us along for the ride as well.

Louis: Alright, well that’s it for this week’s episode, and that’s it for Brad’s tenure on the show. So, again, Brad it’s going to be sad to see you go.

Louis: Alright, well that's it for this week's episode, and that's it for Brad's tenure on the show. So, again, Brad it's going to be sad to see you go.

Stephan: We’ll miss you, buddy.

Stephan: We'll miss you, buddy.

Louis: But all the best.

Patrick: Yeah, we’ll miss you.

Patrick: Yeah, we'll miss you.

Louis: And we’ll definitely have you back on. Unlike Kevin you’ve got to come back for real, not like Kevin.

Louis: And we'll definitely have you back on. Unlike Kevin you've got to come back for real, not like Kevin.

Brad: Yeah, thanks guys, I’ll certainly miss it (laughter). Hey, send me the invite, I’ll be here.

Brad: Yeah, thanks guys, I'll certainly miss it (laughter). Hey, send me the invite, I'll be here.

Louis: Awesome.

路易斯：太好了。

Patrick: Very good. Well, I guess lead us off on around the table for the last time.

帕特里克：很好。 Well, I guess lead us off on around the table for the last time.

Brad: So I’m Brad Williams with WebdevStudios.com and you can find me on Twitter @williamsba.

Brad: So I'm Brad Williams with WebdevStudios.com and you can find me on Twitter @williamsba .

Patrick: I am Patrick O’Keefe for the iFroggy Network, I blog at managingcommunities.com, on Twitter @ifroggy, i-f-r-o-g-g-y.

Patrick: I am Patrick O'Keefe for the iFroggy Network, I blog at managingcommunities.com , on Twitter @ifroggy , ifroggy.

Stephan: I’m Stephan Segraves blogging at badice.com; you can find me on Twitter @ssegraves.

Stephan: I'm Stephan Segraves blogging at badice.com ; you can find me on Twitter @ssegraves .

Louis: And you can find SitePoint on Twitter @sitepointdotcom, that’s sitepoint d-o-t-c-o-m. You can find everything related to the SitePoint Podcast from the first episode on up at sitepoint.com/podcast, and you can email us at podcast@sitepoint.com, you can find me on Twitter @rssaddict. Thanks for listening.

Louis: And you can find SitePoint on Twitter @sitepointdotcom , that's sitepoint dotcom. You can find everything related to the SitePoint Podcast from the first episode on up at sitepoint.com/podcast , and you can email us at podcast@sitepoint.com, you can find me on Twitter @rssaddict . 谢谢收听。

Theme music by Mike Mella.

Mike Mella的主题音乐。

Thanks for listening! Feel free to let us know how we’re doing, or to continue the discussion, using the comments field below.

谢谢收听！欢迎使用下面的评论字段让我们知道我们的状况，或者继续讨论。

翻译自: https://www.sitepoint.com/podcast-138-whats-the-alternative-to-google/

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