Episode 44 of The SitePoint Podcast is now available! This week, Kevin Yank (@sentience) is joined by Opera Software’s Bruce Lawson (@brucel), SitePoint author Ian Lloyd (@lloydi), and Kyle Weems (@cssquirrel), creator of the CSSquirrel web comic, to discuss the latest uproar from within the W3C HTML5 Working Group. Is progress towards the HTML5 standard at risk of derailing, or is this just par for the course in the wild, wild world of standards development?
SitePoint Podcast的 第44集现已发布！ 本周，Kevin Yank( @sentience )与Opera Software的Bruce Lawson( @brucel )，SitePoint作者Ian Lloyd ( @lloydi )和CSSquirrel网络漫画的创建者Kyle Weems( @cssquirrel )一起讨论了W3C HTML5工作组内部的最新动议。 朝着HTML5标准的进展是否存在脱轨的风险，或者这对于在标准制定的狂野世界中所走的道路来说是公平的吗？
Play this episode directly in your browser! Just click the orange “play” button below:
直接在浏览器中播放此剧集！ 只需点击下面的橙色“播放”按钮：
A complete transcript of the interviews is provided below.
下面提供了采访的完整笔录。
You can also download this episode as a standalone MP3 file. Here’s the link:
您也可以将本集下载为独立的MP3文件。 这是链接：
SitePoint Podcast #44: HTML5 is a (Beautiful) Mess (MP3, 47.4MB)
SitePoint Podcast＃44：HTML5是一个(漂亮的)混乱 (MP3，47.4MB)
Kevin: January 15th, 2010. A panel of experts considers the latest clashes within the HTML5 working group. I’m Kevin Yank and this is the SitePoint Podcast number 44: HTML5 is a (Beautiful) Mess.
凯文： 2010年1月15日。一个专家小组审议了HTML5工作组中的最新冲突。 我是Kevin Yank，这是SitePoint播客第44号：HTML5是一个(漂亮的)混乱。
Today I am joined by a number of prominent voices in the web standards community. We’ve got Bruce Lawson, who’s a web standards evangelist with Opera Software Developer Relations.
今天，Web标准社区中的许多杰出人士加入了我的讨论。 我们有布鲁斯·劳森(Bruce Lawson)，他是Opera软件开发人员关系部的网络标准布道者。
Bruce: Hi Kevin.
布鲁斯：嗨，凯文。
Kevin: Hi there. You’re one of six authors collaborating on html5doctor.com, is that right?
凯文：你好。 您是html5doctor.com上合作的六位作者之一，对吗？
Bruce: Six and counting, yeah.
布鲁斯：六个，还有，是的。
Kevin: Six and counting, it’s like a Q&A site focusing on HTML5, answering people’s questions, demystifying the process. Is that fair to say?
凯文(Kevin)：六个，还有一个数字，就像一个以HTML5为重点的问答网站，回答人们的问题，使过程神秘化。 这公平吗？
Bruce: It is yeah. It’s because specs aren’t written for web authors, specs are written for great gurus, so we’re trying to do the translation.
布鲁斯：是的。 这是因为规范不是为网络作者编写的，而是为伟大的大师编写的，因此我们正在尝试进行翻译。
Kevin: Good. And it is not a medical advice site.
凯文：好。 它不是医疗咨询网站。
Bruce: (Laughing) No, no, no, definitely not.
布鲁斯：(笑)不，不，不，绝对不是。
Kevin: I am also joined by Ian Lloyd who is the author of SitePoint’s book for beginning web developers, Build Your Own Web Site the Right Way Using HTML and CSS. The second edition is out now.
凯文(Kevin)： Ian Lloyd也加入了我的行列，他是SitePoint专为新手Web开发人员撰写的书， 《使用HTML和CSS正确地构建自己的网站》 。 第二版现已发行。
Kevin: Hi Ian.
凯文：你好伊恩。
Ian: Hello.
伊恩：你好。
Kevin: Ian is also the author of SitePoint’s The Ultimate HTML Reference and the online version of that was just recently updated with the latest browser support information and that is available for free online at reference.sitepoint.com.
Kevin： Ian还是SitePoint的The Ultimate HTML Reference的作者， 该文档的在线版本最近更新了最新的浏览器支持信息，可以在reference.sitepoint.com上免费在线获得。
And finally today, we have Kyle Weems who is CSSquirrel—or is that pronounced CSS-squirrel?
今天终于到了，我们是Kyle Weems，他是CSSquirrel，还是那个发音明显CSS-squirrel？
Kyle: Just CSSquirrel, which is a number of huge confusions with people, yes.
凯尔：只是CSSquirrel，这是很多与人混淆的地方，是的。
Kevin: C-S-S-Q-U-I-R-R-E-L on Twitter and the site is cssquirrel.com. Kyle is a standards minded web designer, web standards commentator and creator of the always biting CSSquirrel web comic.
凯文： Twitter上CSSQUIRREL，站点是cssquirrel.com 。 凯尔(Kyle)是一位具有标准意识的Web设计师，Web标准评论员，并且是一向令人ing目结舌CSSquirrel网络漫画的创作者。
Kyle, your comic this week, The HTML5 Show is sort of the impetus for me for putting together this podcast, so welcome.
凯尔(Kyle)，您本周的漫画作品《 HTML5秀》(HTML5 Show )对我来说是推动这一播客的动力，非常欢迎。
Kyle: Oh, thank you.
凯尔：哦，谢谢。
Kevin: So as I said, this is a timely podcast. In the past week, the web standards community has been consumed by this … I guess you could call it a scandal. On today’s show we’ll be focusing on this huge issue that seems to have pre-occupied every web developer I know this week and that’s Conan O’Brien threatening to leave the Tonight Show.
凯文：正如我所说，这是及时播客。 在过去的一周中，Web标准社区已经对此感到厌烦……我想您可以称其为丑闻。 在今天的节目中，我们将重点关注这个巨大的问题，这个问题似乎已经吸引了我本周认识的每位Web开发人员，而Conan O'Brien威胁要离开今晚的节目。
Kyle: (Laughing)
凯尔：(笑)
Bruce: Who?
布鲁斯：谁？
Kevin: (Laughing) I think Kyle may only be the only one who got that one as a US participant, apologies to the Brits on board today.
凯文：(笑)我认为凯尔可能是唯一一个成为美国参与者的人，今天向英国人道歉。
Ian: Yeah, all we want to talk about at the moment is the snow.
伊恩：是的，我们现在只想谈论雪。
Kevin: Snow and more snow up there. Is it true that your country is entirely white this week?
凯文：那里下雪了。 贵国本周完全是白人吗？
Bruce: Absolutely true.
布鲁斯：绝对正确。
Ian: Well it was a few days ago, there was an absolute awesome photo that the NASA satellite had taken of us completely covered, so it just feels like it’s never ending and it’s only been a week. We’re a bunch of wimps.
伊恩：好几天前，那张照片真是太棒了，美国国家航空航天局(NASA)卫星为我们拍摄的照片完全被遮盖住了，所以感觉就像永无止境，只有一周。 我们是一堆w子。
Kevin: Making your way around the tunnels underneath the snow, I understand.
凯文：我知道在雪下的隧道中穿行。
Ian: Absolutely.
伊恩：绝对。
Kevin: But seriously, last week’s podcast here at SitePoint, we touched on HTML5 and somebody experiments that developers are trying to play with this spec that is still very much under development. But in the past week, we’ve had fresh controversy erupt from within the W3C HTML5 working group both from within and without—and that’s part of the problem—so I wanted to tackle that on today’s show. I’m trying to paint a picture of what that is, what it means, whether we should be concerned. The development process of the HTML5 spec has been tumultuous from the beginning I guess it’s fair to say. Certainly Kyle here has made a brisk trade of drawing comics about the clashes of personality and opinion that have come about. Bruce for those who don’t follow HTML5 closely, can you give us a rough idea of where that spec is at?
凯文(Kevin)：但是，认真的说， 上周在SitePoint 上的播客中，我们谈到了HTML5和开发人员尝试使用仍在开发中的该规范的一些实验。 但是在过去的一周中，W3C HTML5工作组内部和外部都爆发了新的争议，这是问题的一部分，所以我想在今天的节目中解决这个问题。 我正在尝试描绘什么是什么，意味着什么，我们是否应该关注。 我认为HTML5规范的开发过程从一开始就很麻烦。 毫无疑问，凯尔(Kyle)在这里轻松地画了漫画，讲述了随之而来的性格和见解的冲突。 对于那些不严格遵循HTML5的人来说，布鲁斯(Bruce)，您能否大致了解一下该规范的用途？
Bruce: Who-hoo-hoo… Yep. First of all, let’s go back to how it began.
布鲁斯： Who，hoo，是的。 首先，让我们回到它的开始。
Kevin: Sure.
凯文：好的。
Bruce: Because if we start at the very beginning, it’s a very good place to start.
布鲁斯：因为如果我们从头开始，那是一个很好的起点。
Kevin: You can’t understand how it got to where it is now without understanding the mess that it sprang from.
凯文：如果不了解它产生的混乱，就无法理解它如何到达现在的位置。
Bruce: Indeed. I think 2001 or 2002, the W3C put the finishing touches on HTML4 with a point revision called HTML4.01 and then announced that they were abandoning work on HTML because the future was XML, they said. Many believed them, and I did personally, but then they kind of went off and dreamed up this crazy thing called XHTML2 which was a spec—I’ve described it before as a spec of fantastic and beautiful, philosophical purity that had no relevance at all to the real world. It had no relevance to what the browser manufacturers were doing and little relevance to what authors wanted to do and it broke backwards compatibility so severely that at one point it even depreciated the <img> tag. They brought that back but that’s where they were going.
布鲁斯：的确如此。 他们说，我认为在2001年或2002年，W3C对HTML4进行了最后的修订，即一个名为HTML4.01的修订版，然后宣布他们放弃在HTML上的工作，因为未来是XML。 许多人都相信了它们，而我本人也这样做了，但是后来他们开始幻想着这个疯狂的东西，称为XHTML2，这是一个规范-我之前将其描述为一种奇妙而美丽的哲学纯净的规范，与全部到现实世界。 它与浏览器制造商的工作无关，也与作者想要的工作无关，它向后兼容的程度如此之严重，以至于它甚至贬低了<img>标签。 他们把它带回来，但这就是他们要去的地方。
And so a group of people who worked for browser manufacturers—it started at Opera for whom I work but we were soon joined by people in Mozilla and then Apple—started writing in their own personal time a guerilla spec called WHATWG. I think that stands for Web Hypertext Application Technology Working Group. They called this spec Web Applications 1.0 because it was a spec designed to extend HTML so that it would work for web apps, you know things like Yahoo! Mail and Google Maps and Google Docs and Picnik, the photo editing software, websites that are applications rather than static documents. They were doing this stuff in their own time and then Tim Berners-Lee said “We made a mistake at the W3C and we want to go and reach out and re-start work on HTML”, and a vote was taken and they decide to ask the WHATWG if they could use their spec as the basis for what’s being called HTML5.
因此，为浏览器制造商工作的一群人(最初是在Opera从事我的工作，但后来很快又有Mozilla和Apple的人加入其中)开始在自己的个人时间中编写名为WHATWG的游击规范。 我认为代表Web超文本应用程序技术工作组。 他们称此规范为Web Applications 1.0，因为它是旨在扩展HTML以使其适用于Web应用程序的规范，您知道Yahoo!这样的事情。 Mail和Google Maps和Google Docs和Picnik(照片编辑软件)是作为应用程序而非静态文档的网站。 他们在自己的时间里做这些事情，然后蒂姆·伯纳斯·李说：“我们在W3C上犯了一个错误，我们想走出去并重新开始HTML的工作”，并进行了投票，他们决定询问WHATWG是否可以将其规范用作所谓HTML5的基础。
So HTML5 is a word dreamed up by the W3C and the WHATWG called it Web Applications 1.0 and the specs have been developed by the two groups at once. So it’s been developed by the W3C and by the original custodians, the WHATWG and it’s entirely fair to say there’s been quite considerable culture clashes between those two groups which has kind of come to a head now but the last week’s shenanigans and not really any worse than what we’ve seen before and we’ll see them again, in my opinion.
因此，HTML5是W3C梦word以求的一个词，WHATWG将其称为Web Applications 1.0，并且该规范是由两个小组同时开发的。 因此，它是由W3C和最初的保管人WHATWG开发的，可以说这两个群体之间存在相当大的文化冲突，这很公平，但是上周的恶作剧并没有真正恶化在我看来，比我们之前所见，我们将再次看到它们。
Kevin: So what was on paper a great reconciliation—or at least we hoped it was a push in that direction—it hasn’t really panned out that way. Is that fair? I mean it still seems to be two groups in a lose association.
凯文：所以在纸上实现了很大的和解，或者至少我们希望这是朝着这个方向的推动，但并没有真正实现这一目标。 那公平吗？ 我的意思是，似乎仍然是输掉联想中的两个群体。
Bruce: Absolutely. I don’t know that there ever was any great reconciliation. So for example when the W3C decided to end work on XHTML2 even though it wasn’t complete, they did so because they were kind of acknowledging that the WHATWG had it correctly and there were certainly some members of the WHATWG who were being, in my opinion, unnecessarily triumphalist, if you like, and kind of almost crowing about this victory over the W3C.
布鲁斯：绝对。 我不知道任何大和解。 因此，例如，当W3C决定即使XHTML2尚未完成时也要结束其工作时，他们之所以这样做，是因为他们承认WHATWG的工作正确无误，并且肯定有WHATWG的成员正在的观点，如果需要的话，不必要地取得胜利，并且对这种战胜W3C的想法几乎不屑一顾。
I work for Opera and we’re sitting on lots of W3C committees. I sit on a working group myself, I’m a web standers evangelist. I’ve got lots of time for the W3C but it’s fair to say that W3C took— they really dropped the ball with HTML and it needed the WHAT Working Group to give them a good kick at the backside to make them realize that HTML wasn’t dead and can’t die and it can’t break backwards compatibility but there was never a reconciliation. It’s always been a very uneasy meeting when the WHATWG and the W3C come together.
我为Opera工作，我们坐在许多W3C委员会中。 我本人是一个工作组，我是网络站布道者。 我在W3C上花了很多时间，但是可以说W3C接受了–他们真的放弃了HTML，这需要WHAT Working Group在背后给予他们一个很好的踢脚，以使他们意识到HTML不是'死了，不会死，也无法打破向后兼容，但是从来没有和解。 WHATWG和W3C在一起时，这始终是一次非常不轻松的会议。
Kevin: So that brings us to this week, you said the shenanigans this week were no worse than what we’ve seen before but— Well Kyle, your comic this week, The HTML5 Show paints a picture of the whole process having degenerated into something akin to the Muppet Show. From your perspective, are things getting worse or better?
凯文：这把我们带到了本周，您说本周的恶作剧并不比我们以前看到的要差，但是-凯尔，本周的漫画《 HTML5秀》描绘了整个过程退化的画面类似于木偶戏。 从您的角度来看，情况会变得越来越好吗？
Kyle: I think they’re a little better today than they were when I first made it.
凯尔：我认为今天的情况要比我刚开始时要好一些。
Kevin: Okay.
凯文：好的。
Kyle: But that said, I don’t think it’s going to stay that way. I think it’s going to continue to break down as a process.
凯尔：但这就是说，我认为这种趋势不会持续下去。 我认为它将继续分解为一个过程。
Kevin: So what’s going on exactly?
凯文：那到底是怎么回事？
Kyle: I mean, you have these two organizations as it’s been said with very different philosophies and what to do about the spec and it kind of feels to me like the WHATWG doesn’t really think of HTML5 as HTML5 anymore. Under Ian Hickson, the editor, they’re kind of moving forward. They have made their last call on this. They’re ready to continue to add things to a “versionless” HTML. Meanwhile the W3C which hasn’t hit last call with the spec is still trying to solve what are the targets are for HTML5, specifically.
凯尔(Kyle)：我的意思是，您有这两个组织，因为有人说他们有非常不同的理念以及如何处理此规范，并且我觉得WHATWG不再将HTML5视为HTML5。 在编辑伊恩·希克森(Ian Hickson)的领导下，他们有点前进。 他们已就此进行了最后一次致电。 他们准备继续将内容添加到“无版本” HTML中。 同时，尚未达到规范要求的W3C仍在尝试解决HTML5的具体目标。
Kevin: Right.
凯文：对。
Kyle: And when they’ve made decisions via contributions of a large amount of people regarding what should be in the spec, what shouldn’t be in the spec. There’s been some pretty severe disagreements at least from what I’m viewing from people like Ian, and since basically he’s the editor-in-chief as it were, if he disagrees with that he’s chosen that, ”Well, it’s still in the spec but you guys cannot have it in yours over there if it makes you feel good.” I mean it’s still moving on. It sounds like there’s a breakdown of communication where it’s like even if they do understand each other there’s no kind of like closing the gap to make nice anymore. At least that’s how it feels to me from watching the various mailing lists and chat logs and whatnot.
凯尔(Kyle)：当他们通过大量人员做出的决定中应该包含的内容时，不应该包含哪些内容。 至少从我从Ian这样的人那里看到的内容来看，存在着一些非常严重的分歧，并且由于基本上他是当时的主编，如果他不同意他选择了“嗯，那仍然在规范中”但是，如果能让您感觉良好，那么您就不能在那边买它。” 我的意思是它还在继续。 听起来好像沟通破裂了，就好像他们彼此理解了，再也没有像缩小差距那样好了。 至少从观看各种邮件列表和聊天日志对我的感受就是如此。
Kevin: It’s a bizarre situation that we say there are these two camps, there’s the WHAT Working Group and there is the W3C working group, but in fact Ian Hickson is the appointed leader of both those groups.
凯文：奇怪的是，我们说有两个阵营，有WHAT工作组和W3C工作组，但实际上Ian Hickson是这两个工作组的任命负责人。
Bruce: Yes, although he co-edits— The W3C spec, is co-edited with Dave Hyatt of Apple, I believe.
布鲁斯：是的，尽管我相信他是W3C规范的共同编辑，但我与Apple的戴夫·凯悦(Dave Hyatt)共同编辑。
Kevin: Right.
凯文：对。
Bruce: Although I think Ian is the sole editor of the WHATWG side. Although I’ll be frank, my interest is primarily the tech and not so much the politics because I don’t understand politics very well and it’s a full time job just following the politics.
布鲁斯：尽管我认为伊恩是WHATWG方面的唯一编辑。 尽管我会坦率地说，但我的兴趣主要是技术而不是政治，因为我对政治不是很了解，并且紧随政治之后是全职工作。
Kevin: Well Ian, as someone who regularly writes for beginning web developers and people actually getting work done as opposed to people obsessing about politics. What effect does the tone of the debate that we’re seeing here have on your approach to HTML5?
凯文：好吧，伊恩，是一位经常为新手开发人员撰写文章的人，而实际上是在完成工作的人，而不是那些痴迷于政治的人。 我们在这里看到的辩论气氛对您HTML5方法有什么影响？
Ian: Well, if Bruce says he’s not sort of following the politics then I’m completely in the dark because I’ve kind of made a slight conscious effort really to sort of steer away from the very fine details of HTML5. I definitely have an interest in it, I definitely have an interest in it from a point of view that I have an interest in doing anything I do right and following the standards but I’ve tried not to get too bulked down in fine details because I know it’s something that’s always shifting. I’m just really, really looking forward to the day when I can actually pick up a book that has everything in it and I can trust it and rely on it and that’s ultimately when I’m going to really start to kind of throw myself right in with HTML5.
Ian：好吧，如果Bruce说他没有遵循政治原则，那么我就完全处于黑暗之中，因为我确实做出了一些有意识的努力，实际上是在避开HTML5的非常详细的细节。 我绝对对此感兴趣，从一定角度来看，我绝对对它感兴趣，因为我有兴趣做我做的正确的事情，并遵循标准，但是我尽量避免在细节上过于繁琐，因为我知道这总是在变化。 我只是真的，真的很期待有一天我能真正拿起一本书，里面有所有的东西，我可以信任它并依靠它，而那最终是当我真正开始投入自我的时候就可以使用HTML5
From my point of view, I’m in this situation at the moment at the place where I work, where I’m trying to put together some standards for projects that will not see the light of day for probably a couple of years and what we’re talking about here is something that will have a web front end but it’s part of a much, much bigger project. So I’m faced with this situation where I’m trying to define some standards, not knowing where we’re going to be in two years’ time and knowing what can I safely say now. What can I say is the standard that we want to go with? And when I say standard I mean sort of an internally documented set of recommendations rather than sort of a proper standard if you catch my drift.
从我的角度来看，我目前处于这种情况，我正在工作的地方，正在试图为一些可能无法解决问题的项目制定一些标准，以及我们正在谈论的是这里将有一个Web前端，但这是一个更大得多的项目的一部分。 因此，我面临着试图定义一些标准的情况，不知道两年后我们将要成为什么样子，也不知道我现在可以安全地说些什么。 我能说什么是我们要遵循的标准？ 当我说标准时，我的意思是某种内部记录的建议集，而不是一种适当的标准(如果您不知所措)。
And so this has been the problem I’ve had with HTML5. What can I say now that is going to be safe? And every time I hear about HTML5, it’s not because I’m watching any of the IRC logs or anything like that because I don’t. The only time I ever really hear what’s going on with HTML5 is through Twitter and unfortunately, most of what I get to hear from Twitter is the moaning and the bitching which was obviously what’s happened in the last week. It’s been really interesting and funnily enough that the page that I really found out what was going on with regards to the most recent shenanigans was what Kyle wrote.
因此，这就是我在HTML5中遇到的问题。 我现在能说什么安全吗？ 而且，每当我听说HTML5时，并不是因为我正在观看任何IRC日志或类似的内容，而是因为我没有。 我唯一一次真正了解HTML5的情况是通过Twitter，不幸的是，我从Twitter听到的大部分是抱怨和bit子，这显然是上周发生的事情。 真的很有趣，也很有趣，我真正发现与最近的恶作剧有关的页面就是Kyle写的 。
Couple of days ago, Dave Shae on Twitter, he was really looking for someone to summarize what all this was about and so it’s good to finally find out what the shenanigans were about but I don’t think I really fully understand the politics and I probably don’t actually want to.
几天前，戴夫·谢(Dave Shae)在推特上，他真的是在寻找一个人来总结这一切，所以很高兴终于弄明白那些恶作剧，但我不认为我真的很了解政治，我可能实际上并不想要。
Kevin: Right. We certainly see a lot of, sort of— I see a lot of useful summaries coming out of the WHAT Working Group. They like to post things like weekly summaries of what they’re working on. But that as we’re seeing, they are turning their focus towards the future. It’s like they— I don’t want to be unfair, but it seems to me like that WHAT Working Group, what they’re interested in is blazing the trail, setting a direction for the next thing and working out all the details about how the last thing that they created is going to form a coherent standard, isn’t as much of interest to them.
凯文：对。 我们当然会看到很多，我看到了WHAT工作组的许多有用的总结。 他们喜欢发布每周工作总结等内容。 但是正如我们所看到的那样，他们正在将重点转向未来。 就像他们一样-我不想受到不公平的对待，但是在我看来，WHAT工作组很感兴趣，他们在开拓创新，为下一步工作指明方向，并就如何他们创建的最后一件事将是形成一个统一的标准，这对他们没有太大的兴趣。
Bruce: Don’t forget Kevin that a lot of what we can call HTML5 was actually about documenting the actual reality that had never been written down before, so part of the effort for HTML5 was the first ever specification that documented XMLHTTPRerequest which Microsoft invented and we all use every day with Ajax and nobody ever written it down, things like Canvas which Apple invented and everybody reversed engineered into the different browsers was specified, things like ContentEditable, which was a Microsoft invention was specified because all the different browsers had implemented it. So a lot of what they did actually documented and specified and codified what we already have been using for a long time. There are definitely fantastic new ideas in the HTML5 spec as well but it’s not as if they’re just dreaming up new stuff and running on. I think they think that a lot of things they’ve done has been writing down what we currently use and now they’ve got that foundation there, they can start to move on. Again, I’m not part of that group. This is my personal take from outside that group.
布鲁斯：别忘了凯文(Kevin)，我们可以称之为HTML5的很多东西实际上是在记录以前从未记录过的实际情况，因此HTML5的部分工作是记录了Microsoft发明的XMLHTTPRerequest的第一个规范。我们每天都使用Ajax，没有人写下来，指定了Apple发明的Canvas和每个人都反向工程到不同浏览器的东西，诸如ContentEditable的东西，这是微软的发明，因为所有不同的浏览器都实现了它。 因此，他们实际上所做的很多工作都记录在案，并详细说明和整理了我们已经使用了很长时间的内容。 HTML5规范中肯定也有奇妙的新想法，但这并不是好像他们只是在梦new以求并继续前进。 我认为他们认为他们所做的很多事情都在写下我们当前使用的内容，现在他们已经有了基础，他们可以继续前进。 同样，我不属于该小组。 这是我个人在该小组之外的看法。
Kevin: Go ahead, Ian.
凯文：继续吧，伊恩。
Ian: Sorry, I was just going to say that there’s a nice little phrase they always use for that, isn’t there Bruce? The “paving the cow paths”.
伊恩：对不起，我只是想说一句话，就是他们经常使用的一句话，不是布鲁斯吗？ “铺牛路”。
Bruce: Indeed.
布鲁斯：的确如此。
Ian: I believe that’s what’s always put forward.
伊恩：我相信那是总是提出来的。
Bruce: Yeah, that’s the essential philosophical and practical difference between HTML5 and XHTML2. HTML5 said for better or for worse, this is where we are. Let’s document it, let’s codify it, let’s standardize it so if somebody else wants to make a browser tomorrow, it’s all written down for them. Everything could be interoperable and then let’s build on where we are rather than go off into a fantasy world in which XML rules the world and we can design the Web from scratch and break backwards compatibility because there’s umpty-nine squillion web pages out there and we can’t afford for them to break. We need them to continue working so we are where we are.
布鲁斯：是的，这是HTML5和XHTML2之间本质上的哲学和实践差异。 HTML5说的好与坏，这就是我们的位置。 让我们对其进行记录，整理，标准化，以便将来其他人想要制作一个浏览器时，会为他们全部写下来。 一切都可以互操作，然后让我们建立在自己所处的位置上，而不是进入一个幻想世界，在这个幻想世界中XML统治着整个世界，我们可以从头开始设计Web并打破向后兼容性，因为那里有多达九十亿个网页，而我们让他们无法承受。 我们需要他们继续工作，所以我们在这里。
Kevin: So thinking about Ian’s effort to sort of set his own company’s standards for what they’ll be building in a couple of years’ time. Bruce as the official standards body representative here today, it sounds like you’re advice would be to ignore the noise and the grand plans of people like the WHAT Working Group and focus on the serious standards that are being built at the W3C right now. That’s the stable core that you can focus on if you need something to hold on to.
凯文：所以我想着伊恩(Ian)努力设定自己公司在几年后将要建立的标准的标准。 布鲁斯(Bruce)是今天的官方标准机构代表，这听起来像是您的建议是无视诸如WHAT Working Group之类的人士的喧嚣和宏伟计划，而专注于W3C目前正在建立的严格标准。 如果您需要保留某些东西，那么这就是您可以关注的稳定核心。
Bruce: Yes. First, let me say I’m not representing any standards body. I work for Opera but I’m not part of the team that’s writing the HTML5 spec. My interest is as a developer, I came from a developer background.
布鲁斯：是的。 首先，让我说我不代表任何标准机构。 我为Opera工作，但我不属于编写HTML5规范的团队。 我的兴趣是作为一名开发人员，我来自开发人员背景。
Kevin: I will call you the defender in spirit of web standards, then.
凯文：我将本着网络标准的精神称呼您为捍卫者。
Bruce: Okay, okay. I’m one of the WaSP, but I’m not a W3C guy, nor a WHATWG.
布鲁斯：好的，好的。 我是WaSP之一，但我不是W3C成员，也不是WHATWG。
Kevin: Sure.
凯文：好的。
Bruce: Yes, if you look at the WHATWG version of the spec on WHATWG.org, you’ll see handy little status bars against each element or section that tells you where implementation is in the browsers and some things like Canvas are excellently implemented across four of the five big browsers, other things like ContentEditable, you can use across the board. Other stuff, like Web Sockets, aren’t implemented anywhere and so it would be folly to…
布鲁斯：是的，如果您在WHATWG.org上查看规范的WHATWG版本 ，则会在每个元素或部分看到方便的小状态栏，它们告诉您实现在浏览器中的位置以及诸如Canvas之类的东西在各个浏览器中均实现了出色的实现。在五种大型浏览器中，有四种可以使用，例如ContentEditable等。 Web Sockets等其他东西没有在任何地方实现，因此这样做是愚蠢的……
Ian: Microdata.
伊恩：微数据。
Bruce: Microdata. …it would be folly to suggest those as an internal standard but it’s not difficult to go through and work out which parts of the specs are close to real world or actually just merely document what we’ve all been using for ages. About the noise, I mean Ian mentioned that he was following a lot of stuff on Twitter. I think there is… We live in a noisier environment than we did when HTML4 was being written because we can all Twitter intimate thoughts 900 times a day like I do but also I think it’s naïve of people to assume that there is more politics now than there used to be. The thing is with the W3C, it was always a member organization in which people sat down in smoky rooms and argued with each other and arm wrestled and smiled while they kicked each other in the balls in hotels, face to faces.
布鲁斯：微数据。 …将这些建议作为内部标准是很愚蠢的，但要仔细研究并确定规范的哪些部分与现实世界很接近，或者实际上只是记录我们多年来使用的所有内容并不难。 关于噪音，我的意思是伊恩(Ian)提到他在Twitter上关注了很多东西。 我认为这里存在……我们生活的环境比编写HTML4时要嘈杂，因为我们可以像我一样每天对Twitter进行900次贴心的想法，但我认为人们天真的假设现在的政治比过去有。 W3C的问题在于，它始终是一个成员组织，人们坐在烟雾弥漫的房间里互相争论，手臂摔跤和微笑，而他们互相面对面踢在旅馆的球上。
What we’ve got now with the WHATWG is they started off a process in which anybody can join and anybody can comment and Ian Hickson has always said he doesn’t care where a good idea comes from. It can be from a W3C member group or it can be from an individual in Bangalore or Berlin or Birmingham. It can be posted on IRC or Twitter or a blog post. If it’s a good idea, it’s a good idea. So I think the extra noise and the idea that there’s more politics is actually a function of a) our Twitterized society, and also b) the fact that there’s just a hugely open process whereby bickering happens out in the open rather than in Silicon Valley hotel lobbies.
WHATWG现在我们所拥有的是，他们开始了一个任何人都可以加入，任何人都可以发表评论的过程，而Ian Hickson一直说他不在乎好主意从何而来。 它可以来自W3C成员组，也可以来自班加罗尔，柏林或伯明翰的个人。 可以将其发布在IRC或Twitter或博客上。 如果这是个好主意，那是个好主意。 因此，我认为额外的声音和更多政治的想法实际上是以下因素的作用：a)我们的Twitter社会，以及b)事实是，在一个非常开放的过程中，争吵发生在公开场合而不是在硅谷酒店大堂。
Kevin: Having spoken to people who’ve been on W3C working groups before, when they did this closed version of the process, it definitely seems like the new HTML way of doing things, if nothing else, is better for the mental health of the people involved in the debates. But from your point of view, is this openness damaging the spec in the eyes of the greater web community?
凯文(Kevin)：在与过W3C工作组的人们进行过交谈之后，当他们完成该过程的封闭版本时，无疑似乎是新HTML处事方式(如果没有其他规定的话)对患者的心理健康更为有利。参与辩论的人。 但是从您的角度来看，这种开放性会损害更大的Web社区眼中的规范吗？
Bruce: In my personal opinion, if there is damage in the wider community, it’s very transient and it leads to a vastly superior spec in the long term. That’s my personal perspective. I don’t know what the other guys feel.
布鲁斯：我个人认为，如果更广泛的社区受到损害，那将是非常短暂的，并且从长远来看会带来极为优越的性能。 那是我个人的观点。 我不知道其他人的感觉。
Kevin: Would you go along with that, Ian?
凯文：你愿意吗，伊恩？
Ian: It depends what day it is you ask me really. I mean some days I’ll be very enthusiastic about what I can actually implement with HTML5 and what’s safe to use now and then other days you do have these kinds of flaming arguments that go on and make me think, (sigh) “Why do we bother?”
伊恩：那要看你今天问我的日期。 我的意思是，有几天我会非常热衷于我可以用HTML5实际实现什么，以及现在可以安全使用的东西，而有时候，您确实会遇到这些令人发指的争论，这让我思考，(叹息)“为什么我们烦吗？”
Kevin: What I’m wondering is would you rather hear all of this noise and take it or leave it or do you prefer the way things used to be that we just got these nice well-considered, well-worded specs for us to consider as a whole in draft form and submit feedback to in a civilized way. Is it nice to know what they’re arguing about or just that they are arguing on our behalf?
凯文：我想知道的是，您是希望听到所有这些噪音，还是接受还是离开，还是您更喜欢以前的方式，因为我们刚刚获得了这些经过深思熟虑，措辞充分的规格供我们考虑以草案的形式整体提交，并以文明的方式提交反馈。 知道他们在争论什么还是只是代表我们在争论？
Ian: I think overall, it’s probably a good thing that we are hearing what the arguments are about, I mean you could always say use the expression “ignorance is bliss” if someone puts something in front of you and says this is how it should go, you say, “Oh, I’ll accept that. That’s fine.” But then if you have a problem with it then it’s just too late to do anything about it. So it’s good that people are having these arguments or discussions about where it’s right and where it’s going right and where it’s going wrong. If we cast our minds back to what was happening with the accessibility guidelines with the WCAG2 and that went through absolutely massive, massive changes and it wouldn’t have ended up being the documentation that it is now had they not been the almighty storm that was kicked off about it. And so when this happens with the HTML5, you got to think well, there are a few bumps in the road but ultimately it’s got to be good for the final result.
伊恩：我认为总的来说，我们听到这些论点可能是一件好事，我的意思是，如果有人在您面前摆放东西，您总是可以说“无知就是幸福”这个表达。走，你说：“哦，我会接受的。 没关系。” 但是，如果您对此有疑问，那么对此采取任何措施为时已晚。 因此，人们对正确的地方，正确的地方和错误的地方进行这些辩论或讨论是一件好事。 如果我们回想起WCAG2的可访问性准则发生的事情，并且经历了绝对巨大，巨大的改变，并且如果它们不是万能的风暴，那么它最终将不会成为现在的文档。开始了。 因此，当HTML5发生这种情况时，您必须考虑清楚，道路上会有一些颠簸，但最终它必须对最终结果有利。
Kevin: Yeah. I know Kyle, you must be all for this public process. You wouldn’t have anything to draw comics about otherwise.
凯文：是的。 我知道Kyle，您必须全心投入这个公共流程。 否则，您将没有任何画漫画的地方。
Kyle: Right, I’d still be trying to make up more jokes about Opera if HTML wasn’t so noisy – and no offense, Bruce. I think process is a good thing because in addition, it has given me something to draw every week. Yeah, it does give in theory everybody a say in what’s going on around them since HTML5 or versionless HTML or whatever we’re going to end up calling it—Frank, we could call it Frank if we like—is going to be used probably for several years if not way past what I would think a technology should last with billions of web pages. So you know if we don’t get our say in now, then naturally we’ll just be complaining farther down the road.
凯尔：是的，如果HTML不太嘈杂的话，我仍然会尝试对Opera进行更多的笑话–布鲁斯(Bruce)也没有冒犯。 我认为过程是一件好事，因为除此之外，它每周还给我画些东西。 是的，从理论上讲，它确实使每个人都可以对周围发生的事情发表意见，因为HTML5或无版本HTML或我们最终将其称为“ Frank”(如果愿意，我们可以称其为“ Frank”)可能会被使用。几年来，即使没有超越我认为的技术，也应该能够持续数十亿个网页。 因此，您知道如果我们现在不发言，那么自然而然地，我们只会抱怨得更远。
I’d say the only part about it that sometimes disturbs me personally and the reason I end up drawing these angry squirrel comics is when you have the appearance of the public process and then when there’s decisions made by the majority, then you’ll have like—I love to pick on them but—Ian Hickson, the editor will then say, “Okay, we’ve had the process. The process has gone through. I’ve decided that I’m going to do it this way anyway.” and that kind of hurt me when that happens because then the process is an illusion and it’s kind of shown for what it is and then it’s like well, what does it matter what we think?
我会说，有时它唯一会打扰我的部分，而我最终画出这些愤怒的松鼠漫画的原因是，当您出现在公共程序中时，然后当大多数人做出决定时，您将拥有例如-我喜欢挑选它们，但是-编辑伊恩·希克森(Ian Hickson)随后会说：“好的，我们已经完成了流程。 该过程已经完成。 我已经决定无论如何要这样做。” 当这种情况发生时，这种伤害使我感到痛苦，因为那是一个幻觉，它表明了它的本质，然后就好了，我们的想法有什么关系？
Kevin: So in that sense your comics would be a peaceful form of protest?
凯文：那么从这个意义上说，您的漫画将是和平的抗议形式？
Kyle: Absolutely. Maybe it’s just a principle because often HTML5 for what ends up coming out of it has been good so far so regardless of the process, it might be a good product but if you’re going to have a process I’d prefer it’s at least honest.
凯尔：当然。 也许这只是一个原则，因为到目前为止产生HTML5一直很不错，因此无论使用哪种过程，它都可能是一个好的产品，但是如果您要使用一个过程，我希望它至少是诚实。
Bruce: I think Kyle’s hit upon something really interesting there because although I’ve been talking about an open process, it’s true or it’s my perception that the WHATWG and Ian Hickson run a kind of open source process whereby Hicksy’s a benevolent dictator for life and the W3C run a process which seeks consensus. And Hicksy’s on record is saying he doesn’t seek consensus. He will weigh up all the evidence given to him, regardless of where it comes from or what form it comes in, but ultimately he will take a decision because he thinks that you can’t have a consensus based approach when you’re looking at a thousand plus participants in a working group. I can’t comment, I can’t even imagine what it must be like to have to process the tub thumping and the ranting of a thousand people like me on email everyday but it’s true I think what Kyle says that there isn’t a consensus seeking approach. Openly it’s not a consensus seeking approach, it’s, “I’ve listened to you all and this is what I’ve decided.” from Ian.
布鲁斯：我认为凯尔(Kyle)碰到了一件非常有趣的事情，因为尽管我一直在谈论一个开放过程，但这是对的，或者我认为WHATWG和伊恩·希克森(Ian Hickson)运行着一种开源过程，希克斯(Hicksy)是人生的仁慈独裁者， W3C运行寻求共识的过程。 希克斯(Hicksy)的记录是他没有寻求共识。 无论证据来自何处或以何种形式出现，他都会权衡提供给他的所有证据，但最终他将做出决定，因为他认为您在查看时无法采用基于共识的方法。一千多名工作组的参与者。 我无可奉告，我什至无法想象每天要处理浴缸重击和成千上万的人像我一样在电子邮件中咆哮，但我确实认为Kyle所说的没有寻求共识的方法。 公开地说，这不是寻求共识的方法，而是“我已经听取了大家的意见，这就是我的决定。” 来自伊恩。
Kyle said something interesting which was that the spec will probably last a long time, longer than maybe a technology should but I think that HTML5 has already prolonged the life of HTML because things like Flash and things like Microsoft Silverlight were snapping at HTML’s heels as the way to build web applications simply because it was too difficult or clumsy or clunky to do them in HTML and JavaScript. So I think the HTML5 process is already a victory for those of us who believe that they Web should be an open standard because it’s making the tools we all use more suitable for the things we need to build and hopefully, therefore, prolonging the life of open standards for the web which I believe passionately in.
凯尔(Kyle)说，有趣的是，该规范可能会持续很长时间，比技术可能更长。但我认为HTML5已经延长了HTML的寿命，因为Flash和Microsoft Silverlight之类的东西紧紧抓住了HTML的脚步。仅仅因为用HTML和JavaScript编写Web应用程序太困难，笨拙或笨拙而构建Web应用程序的一种方式。 因此，对于那些认为Web应该成为开放标准的人来说，HTML5流程已经是他们的胜利，因为它使我们所有人使用的工具都更适合于我们需要构建的事物，因此希望延长它们的使用寿命。我深信不疑的开放网络标准。
Kevin: It seems like we have three levels of openness that are possible here if we divide it into strata. You have the closed technologies like Flash—as the perpetual whipping boy here—but Flash developed by one company and released as a published spec but just one company’s opinion of how things should be. Then we have the direction we see being taken by HTML5 where everyone gets a say but what ends up being decided on and published, it seems, comes down to what one person is convinced of by everyone getting a say, rather than the consensus that the W3C would hope to achieve in it’s typical standards process. And then finally we have this ideal of consensus whatever that means on any given day, whether it’s you get 75% of people in the working group voting the same way, you call that consensus and too bad if you’re in the other 25%. So it sounds like HTML5 is a middle ground. It’s open enough and everyone is getting their say and that makes it better than what we might otherwise be stuck with, but it’s not quite the ideal we might hope it could be.
凯文：如果我们将其划分为阶层，似乎我们可以实现三个开放程度。 您拥有像Flash这样的封闭技术(这里是永远的鞭策者)，但是Flash由一家公司开发并作为已发布的规范发布，但是只有一家公司对事情的看法。 然后我们有了HTML5的发展方向，每个人都有发言权，但最终决定和发布的内容似乎取决于每个人都说了一个人所相信的东西，而不是共识： W3C希望在其典型的标准流程中实现这一目标。 最后，无论在任何一天，无论意味着什么，我们都有这种共识的理想，无论是让工作组中的75％的人以相同的方式投票，您都称这种共识，如果在另外25％的情况下都太糟糕了。 因此，听起来HTML5是中间立场。 它足够开放，每个人都在说他们的话，这使它比我们原本可以坚持的更好，但这并不是我们希望的理想。
Kyle, do you want to take that?
凯尔，你想接受吗？
Kyle: Uh, sure. It kinda sounds like the wild west, now, you know? Uh, we should name HTML5 after it. But yeah, I mean one thing that Bruce said that I have to agree with completely is the bit about plug-ins like Flash and Silverlight, as a person who works with code everyday and as someone who’s gotten more aware of accessibility and you look at those plug-ins and it just creates this huge, obnoxious kind of glut that appears in a web page that’s hard to work with or do things with and of course are owned by the various companies that made them. So they decide how those work individually. I love the fact that with HTML, it’s an open standard for everyone and it’s also with HTML5 doing more things that developers do. Ian just, if we could let him jump in, but he just wrote a point about this Canvas-level accessibility and that’s a good one.
凯尔：嗯，当然。 听起来有点像荒野的西部，现在，您知道吗？ 嗯，我们应该以它命名HTML5。 但是，是的，我的意思是Bruce说我必须完全同意的一件事是关于Flash和Silverlight之类的插件，作为一个每天使用代码的人，以及一个更加了解可访问性的人，这些插件，它只会造成这种巨大的，令人讨厌的过剩，出现在网页上，这些网页很难使用或无法处理，当然也归制作它们的各个公司所有。 因此，他们决定了这些如何单独工作。 我喜欢这样一个事实，那就是，对于HTML来说，它是每个人的开放标准，而且对于HTML5来说，它还能做更多开发人员要做的事情。 Ian只是，如果我们可以允许他加入，那么他只是在Canvas级别的可访问性上写了一点，这是一个很好的观点。
Ian: Yeah, I mean you mentioned obviously with Flash, and that Flash is, depending on who you give it to it can be incredibly inaccessible or it can be very accessible but finding a developer who can do a really, really good job with a Flash movie or application, it’s not easy to get someone who can do that. But from my understanding, my little understanding of what Canvas can do in terms of accessibility that is actually presenting a big hurdle at the moment so it may be using open technologies but it comes with its own baggage. Would that be fair to say, Bruce?
伊恩：是的，我的意思是您在Flash中提到的很明显，而Flash取决于您授予它的对象，它可能难以置信或难以访问，但要找到一个开发人员可以用Flash确实做得非常好Flash电影或应用程序，要找到能够做到这一点的人并不容易。 但是根据我的理解，我对Canvas在可访问性方面的功能知之甚少，目前实际上是一个很大的障碍，因此它可能使用开放技术，但也有自己的负担。 布鲁斯，公平地说吗？
Bruce: It would, yeah. I think the reason for that is that Canvas is a proprietary Apple invention they invented for their dashboard that was retrospectively codified as a spec. So no implementation of it is yet accessible but I do know that a couple of the guys I work with in Opera are interested in making Canvas accessible and I introduced them to the guys whose job it was in Adobe, or Macromedia as it was, to retrospectively make Flash 5 accessible, and they have been talking. And this gives me an opportunity as well to say that I don’t want to engage or I don’t want to be able to think I’m engaging in Flash bashing here. Flash is a cool technology.
布鲁斯：是的，是的。 我认为这样做的原因是Canvas是Apple专有的发明，是他们为仪表板发明的，被追溯编为规格。 因此，尚无可用的实现，但是我确实知道，我在Opera中工作的几个人都对使Canvas变得可访问感兴趣，因此我向他们介绍了在Adobe或Macromedia中工作的人。回顾性地使Flash 5变得可访问，他们一直在讨论。 这也使我有机会说我不想参与，或者我不希望自己在这里从事Flash扑打。 Flash是一项很酷的技术。
Somebody said to me when I spoke at a conference last year, something that struck me as really profound and I’ve been looking for a reference for it, and this guy told me that this was research done on the top 100 companies in the world in the year 1900 and only three of them were still around in the year 2000. And I thought it doesn’t matter how good any one company is, if the Web’s going to last, it can’t be entrusted to any company, no matter how benevolent that might be because you just never know if that company is going to be around, and wouldn’t it be appalling if all of the history and all of the stuff that we built on the Web disappeared into the ether because one company went under. So that’s why I’m convinced that it should be an open standard not because I want to bash any one particular corporation just because I think the web is too valuable to be in the hands of any one company.
去年我在一次会议上发言时有人对我说，这让我印象深刻，我一直在寻找参考。这个人告诉我，这是对全球前100家公司的研究在1900年，其中只有三家在2000年仍然存在。我认为任何一家公司的业绩如何都没有关系，如果网络能够持续下去，就不能将其委托给任何一家公司，不管这是多么仁慈，因为您只是不知道该公司是否会存在，如果我们在网络上建立的所有历史和所有东西都消失在以太里，那是不是令人震惊，因为一家公司倒下了。 因此，这就是为什么我坚信这应该是一个开放标准，而不是因为我想抨击任何一家特定的公司，只是因为我认为网络太有价值而无法被任何一家公司掌握。
Kevin: So what then is the distinction between one company Adobe, building Flash and releasing it, as eventually releasing it as a file format that is documented for other people to implement if they see fit versus Apple bringing Canvas to the WHAT Working Group, proposing it there as something that any browser can implement. What’s the distinction because it seems very subtle?
凯文(Kevin)：那么，一家公司Adobe，创建Flash和发布它之间的区别是什么？最终，它以文件格式发布，如果其他人认为合适，可以记录下来供其他人实施，而Apple将Canvas引入WHAT工作组，提议它是任何浏览器都可以实现的。 有什么区别，因为它看起来很微妙？
Bruce: It does and the main difference I think is that Canvas for whatever reason, it”s before my time, was copied by the other browsers, it’s native to them so you don’t need a plug-in to use Canvas, whereas with Flash, the browser has to pass the data to a plug-in. So for example if you’re passing off video data to a Flash plug in, it’s a black box. If it crashes, you can’t control it, there’s nothing the browser manufacturer can do whereas with native video, you can manipulate it any which way you choose so there’s nothing in my opinion wrong with Flash as a product. It’s just for historical reasons, it’s a plug-in and Canvas lives natively in four of the five browsers and therefore it’s an open standard.
布鲁斯：的确如此，我的主要区别是我认为，Canvas是出于其他原因而被其他浏览器复制的，无论出于何种原因，它都是它们的本机，因此您无需使用插件即可使用Canvas，而使用Flash，浏览器必须将数据传递到插件。 因此，例如，如果要将视频数据传递到Flash插件，则它是一个黑匣子。 如果它崩溃了，您将无法控制它，浏览器制造商将无能为力，而使用本地视频，您可以选择任何方式对其进行操作，因此我认为Flash作为产品没有错。 仅仅是出于历史原因，它是一个插件，Canvas原生存在于五个浏览器中的四个中，因此它是一个开放标准。
Ian: You mentioned something today Bruce on Twitter that one of the biggest hurdles that you saw with this kind of rich media was actually the lack of visual IDEs. So with Flash there are tools that have been there for a long time, Silverlight maybe, not everyone’s cup of tea but they’ve worked hard on developing the tools, whether it’s something that you want to use or not. But if you want to create something that’s going to be outputted on Canvas then where do you start?
伊恩：您今天在Twitter上提到了布鲁斯(Bruce)，您对于这种富媒体看到的最大障碍之一实际上是缺乏可视化IDE。 因此，有了Flash，已经有很长一段时间的工具了，也许Silverlight并不是每个人都可以喝到的，但是他们在开发工具方面一直在努力，无论您是否要使用它。 但是，如果您要创建要在Canvas上输出的内容，那么从哪里开始呢？
Bruce: Well it’s interesting because immediately after I Twitted that, I got a Twit back from a guy who actually works for Opera who’s on the SVG working group which is a technology that’s similar but not the same as Canvas and he pointed me to a demo by an Adobe engineer of a guy importing an Illustrator file into Dreamweaver which Dreamweaver then turns into Canvas, which was fascinating and I didn’t know existed. So that’s really encouraging because the blog post that I was pointed to, the Adobe guy that made the point that Adobe doesn’t make the money from distributing the Flash player. Adobe makes its money from selling authoring tools, so if Dreamweaver and Illustrator and the Flash tool can produce Canvas just as easily as it can Flash then of course, there’s still a great incentive for people to part with the money to buy Creative Studio because at the moment you want to write Canvas, you got to write JavaScript and not everybody wants to do that.
布鲁斯：嗯，这很有趣，因为在我受骗之后，我立即从一个实际为Opera工作的家伙那里回来了，这个人是SVG工作组的成员，该技术与Canvas类似但不相同，他为我演示了一个演示一个人的Adobe工程师将一个Illustrator文件导入到Dreamweaver中，然后Dreamweaver将其转换为Canvas，这很有趣，我不知道它存在。 因此，这确实令人鼓舞，因为我指向的博客文章是Adobe人士，他指出Adobe不能从分发Flash播放器中获利。 Adobe通过出售创作工具赚钱，因此，如果Dreamweaver，Illustrator和Flash工具能够像Flash一样容易地制作Canvas，那么人们仍然有很大的动力去花钱购买Creative Studio，因为当您要编写Canvas时，您必须编写JavaScript，但并不是每个人都愿意这样做。
Kevin: So bringing this back to HTML5, Kyle through your comics, I think everyone is more than aware of your opinions on the standards process but as far as the actual web development work that you do day to day, what is you approach to HTML5? I mean we’ve heard on this podcast from developers who have started using HTML4 with class names that match HTML5 elements as sort of a forward looking approach to their markup, while other people have actually taken the plunge and started using HTML5 markup despite the difficulties that that entails with today’s browsers. How do you approach it?
凯文(Kevin)：因此，凯尔(Kyle)通过漫画将其带回到HTML5，我认为每个人都比您更了解您对标准流程的看法，但是就您日常所做的实际Web开发工作而言，您对HTML5的处理方式是什么？ I mean we've heard on this podcast from developers who have started using HTML4 with class names that match HTML5 elements as sort of a forward looking approach to their markup, while other people have actually taken the plunge and started using HTML5 markup despite the difficulties that that entails with today's browsers. How do you approach it?
Kyle: That’s actually a really good point because it kind of ties into something else about advocacy for HTML5 which I’ll try to bounce back to in a second. I work at Mindfly Website Design Studio so I report to bosses with opinions and whatnot, and so HTML5 can be a tricky sell especially once you start doing the whole <!DOCTYPE html> bit because certain creaky old browsers that haven’t quite left the Internet yet can give you problems, severe problems when you start marking up in it. In particular Internet Explorer 7 and younger, or older, are fairly problematic when it comes to styling elements that didn’t exist when it was made like header and footer and what not.
Kyle: That's actually a really good point because it kind of ties into something else about advocacy for HTML5 which I'll try to bounce back to in a second. I work at Mindfly Website Design Studio so I report to bosses with opinions and whatnot, and so HTML5 can be a tricky sell especially once you start doing the whole <!DOCTYPE html> bit because certain creaky old browsers that haven't quite left the Internet yet can give you problems, severe problems when you start marking up in it. In particular Internet Explorer 7 and younger, or older, are fairly problematic when it comes to styling elements that didn't exist when it was made like header and footer and what not.
Kevin: Right.
凯文：对。
Kyle: So actually what’s happened is here by and large at the work place, I’m unfortunately still coding in HTML4, XHTML1.1 or whatever you want to call it and doing the class name conventions to kind of mentally prepare myself for things like header and footer and whatnot, and then when I can get away with it when we have a client who wants to take a risk or if there’s a function that HTML5 allows in certain browsers that isn’t a hundred percent vital in others then we’ll go ahead and take that risk and use the HTML5, prepare them for the fact that certain browsers won’t be able to use those features. So from that position, I use it on my personal stuff but when it comes to making things for clients, a lot of times I have to make sure the website works for everybody and so certain features doesn’t work for everybody regardless as opposed to some sort of graduated kind of experience.
Kyle: So actually what's happened is here by and large at the work place, I'm unfortunately still coding in HTML4, XHTML1.1 or whatever you want to call it and doing the class name conventions to kind of mentally prepare myself for things like header and footer and whatnot, and then when I can get away with it when we have a client who wants to take a risk or if there's a function that HTML5 allows in certain browsers that isn't a hundred percent vital in others then we'll go ahead and take that risk and use the HTML5, prepare them for the fact that certain browsers won't be able to use those features. So from that position, I use it on my personal stuff but when it comes to making things for clients, a lot of times I have to make sure the website works for everybody and so certain features doesn't work for everybody regardless as opposed to some sort of graduated kind of experience.
Advocating HTML5, not only in the workplace but also in the web development community and then the online community of all web developers and designers, it can be tricky to get people to buy in to taking that risk making sites for clients in exchange for money when they’re not sure about the stability of the spec and I think that’s been the hugest issue with this public process. I mean I’m glad it’s a public process but when it doesn’t appear the groups are getting along, we have an item that’s in the spec, then it’s not in the spec, or you have something that changes in how it functions, these people become really shy at the idea of jumping in and trying to adopt these features and granted it’s a spec in progress so that’s expected but it can make it a hard sell.
Advocating HTML5, not only in the workplace but also in the web development community and then the online community of all web developers and designers, it can be tricky to get people to buy in to taking that risk making sites for clients in exchange for money when they're not sure about the stability of the spec and I think that's been the hugest issue with this public process. I mean I'm glad it's a public process but when it doesn't appear the groups are getting along, we have an item that's in the spec, then it's not in the spec, or you have something that changes in how it functions, these people become really shy at the idea of jumping in and trying to adopt these features and granted it's a spec in progress so that's expected but it can make it a hard sell.
Ian: And following up on the idea about advocacy, just to relay a little story about where Bruce and I have, well I wouldn’t say worked together, but what happened was I had a question from a colleague at work and they were asking about implementing video in HTML5 and I started to answer the question and then kind of stopped myself and thought, “You know I’m not really the best person to ask about this.” and I got on to Bruce and said, “Would you be interested in coming down to speaking to our developers here?” In our team, we’ve got a group of about 12 developers who are—well, not all of them are web-standards-savvy but we’ve got a good proportion of people that get it and they would be enthusiastic and would be keen to learn.
Ian: And following up on the idea about advocacy, just to relay a little story about where Bruce and I have, well I wouldn't say worked together, but what happened was I had a question from a colleague at work and they were asking about implementing video in HTML5 and I started to answer the question and then kind of stopped myself and thought, “You know I'm not really the best person to ask about this.” and I got on to Bruce and said, “Would you be interested in coming down to speaking to our developers here?” In our team, we've got a group of about 12 developers who are—well, not all of them are web-standards-savvy but we've got a good proportion of people that get it and they would be enthusiastic and would be keen to learn.
Bruce was happy to come down and talk about HTML5, talk about some of the Opera stuff and give us some demos and it was really, really good. We had some real enthusiastic responses to these people and I think Bruce was happy to come along to a company where we’ve got thousands of employees. It’s a big organization but there are people that get it. And we’re starting to make baby, baby steps towards using HTML5 and I mean the tiniest, tiniest little steps. For example, we now use the HTML5 doctype. It was a no-brainer. It was just such a simple little thing to change and I did it as part of a re-burning exercise that we were going through a short while ago.
Bruce was happy to come down and talk about HTML5, talk about some of the Opera stuff and give us some demos and it was really, really good. We had some real enthusiastic responses to these people and I think Bruce was happy to come along to a company where we've got thousands of employees. It's a big organization but there are people that get it. And we're starting to make baby, baby steps towards using HTML5 and I mean the tiniest, tiniest little steps. For example, we now use the HTML5 doctype. 这很容易。 It was just such a simple little thing to change and I did it as part of a re-burning exercise that we were going through a short while ago.
Going back to what I said earlier in the podcast about trying to define some standards and picking up from what you were saying about using class names that kind of tallied up with the HTML5 standards. One of things that I’ve actually specified in these documentation that I’ve been writing is that we should be using header and footer elements instead of <div class="header">, or <div id="footer"> and on top of that, I’ve also created some little favelets that the testing people can use to test against it so if there’s a presence of a div with an ID that looks like it probably should be an HTML5 equivalent then it will alert it, alert them to it.
Going back to what I said earlier in the podcast about trying to define some standards and picking up from what you were saying about using class names that kind of tallied up with the HTML5 standards. One of things that I've actually specified in these documentation that I've been writing is that we should be using header and footer elements instead of <div class="header"> , or <div id="footer"> and on top of that, I've also created some little favelets that the testing people can use to test against it so if there's a presence of a div with an ID that looks like it probably should be an HTML5 equivalent then it will alert it, alert them to it.
So these little things that we started to implement but it’s still a long way off before we get down the road of saying using the video element. I think ultimately, what we’re going to end up with is a real mish-mash of HTML5 doctype, XHTML Syntax, Flash and possibly Canvas. But another problem that we have is you’re talking about older browsers and I guess to come here work for is typical in a lot of companies where – well, we’re still using IE6 and we’re not going to be off IE6, I know, for probably a good couple of years when we’re going to be jumping at a corporate level, we’re going to upgrading from Windows XP straight to Windows 7 but we’re still talking another two years of IE6 and that can make it very, very problematic as a developer to say, “Well, we want to use HTML5. We can come up with these things.” They look great in the new browsers but the people have got to sign these off are still using the cruddy, old browser from 2001 and that’s probably the biggest challenge that we have in trying to drive HTML5 forward.
So these little things that we started to implement but it's still a long way off before we get down the road of saying using the video element. I think ultimately, what we're going to end up with is a real mish-mash of HTML5 doctype, XHTML Syntax, Flash and possibly Canvas. But another problem that we have is you're talking about older browsers and I guess to come here work for is typical in a lot of companies where – well, we're still using IE6 and we're not going to be off IE6, I know, for probably a good couple of years when we're going to be jumping at a corporate level, we're going to upgrading from Windows XP straight to Windows 7 but we're still talking another two years of IE6 and that can make it very, very problematic as a developer to say, “Well, we want to use HTML5. We can come up with these things.” They look great in the new browsers but the people have got to sign these off are still using the cruddy, old browser from 2001 and that's probably the biggest challenge that we have in trying to drive HTML5 forward.
Bruce: Aw man, I hear you. As you know Ian, I used to work for the Law Society in England and until 2005, the web team were only allowed to use IE5 to check our work and it was a disciplinary offense to download a different browser. So I understand where you are. And now I’m going to metamorphose into HTML5 Evangelist Man, but the beauty of what they’ve done philosophically is fantastic is it’s so backwardsly compatible. So with the video element you can put fallback between the tags and you can embed a Flash movie if you want to. So a browser that can use a video element will do, whereas a browser that can’t use a video element will just fall back and import the Flash movie and it won’t have necessarily all the loveliness that native video has, but something will show which I think is fab.
Bruce: Aw man, I hear you. As you know Ian, I used to work for the Law Society in England and until 2005, the web team were only allowed to use IE5 to check our work and it was a disciplinary offense to download a different browser. So I understand where you are. And now I'm going to metamorphose into HTML5 Evangelist Man, but the beauty of what they've done philosophically is fantastic is it's so backwardsly compatible. So with the video element you can put fallback between the tags and you can embed a Flash movie if you want to. So a browser that can use a video element will do, whereas a browser that can't use a video element will just fall back and import the Flash movie and it won't have necessarily all the loveliness that native video has, but something will show which I think is fab.
If anybody listening wants to look at that, there’s a guy called Kroc Camen, I think it’s C-A-M-E-N, his website’s camendesign.com. If you look at Video for Everyone in your search engine, you’ll find it and he’s got some beautiful code, which validates as HTML5 and yet will show the video in all browsers by using Flash as a backup for IE6, etc. That’s the great thing.
If anybody listening wants to look at that, there's a guy called Kroc Camen, I think it's CAMEN, his website's camendesign.com . If you look at Video for Everyone in your search engine, you'll find it and he's got some beautiful code , which validates as HTML5 and yet will show the video in all browsers by using Flash as a backup for IE6, etc. That's the great thing.
Canvas, it’s a little trickier. The header and the footer elements, Remi Sharp a friend of mine and a fellow HTML5 doctor adds a little bit of JavaScript which will make those stylable in IE5 onwards, I think. It doesn’t work in Netscape 4 because I tried it when I spoke at a conference last year and it was a bit wobbly.
Canvas, it's a little trickier. The header and the footer elements, Remi Sharp a friend of mine and a fellow HTML5 doctor adds a little bit of JavaScript which will make those stylable in IE5 onwards, I think. It doesn't work in Netscape 4 because I tried it when I spoke at a conference last year and it was a bit wobbly.
Kevin: Oh gosh, well that rules it out. (laugh)
Kevin: Oh gosh, well that rules it out. (笑)
Bruce: Yeah, I think we can forgive Netscape— not working in Netscape 4.
Bruce: Yeah, I think we can forgive Netscape— not working in Netscape 4.
Kevin: Yeah.
凯文：是的。
Bruce: I apologize for putting my evangelist hat on, but that’s why I forgive all the politics bull— B.S., because it can do this. They’ve designed it in a way that allows for maximum backwards compatibility and also Ian, it’s not a mismatch if you’re using XHTML syntax and some Canvas and some Flash and an HTML5 doctype, you’re doing what HTML5 was designed to do which was to reflect how real developers in the real world with real customers have to work, which is exactly the same way as we use CSS. You know, we have progressive enhancement and we use things that will work in the modern browsers but will degrade gracefully in those that don’t. This is the way we’ve always worked. There’s nothing to, there’s no need for anybody to feel shamefaced and say it’s a real mismatch. We’ve all been doing that for ages.
Bruce: I apologize for putting my evangelist hat on, but that's why I forgive all the politics bull— BS, because it can do this. They've designed it in a way that allows for maximum backwards compatibility and also Ian, it's not a mismatch if you're using XHTML syntax and some Canvas and some Flash and an HTML5 doctype, you're doing what HTML5 was designed to do which was to reflect how real developers in the real world with real customers have to work, which is exactly the same way as we use CSS. You know, we have progressive enhancement and we use things that will work in the modern browsers but will degrade gracefully in those that don't. This is the way we've always worked. There's nothing to, there's no need for anybody to feel shamefaced and say it's a real mismatch. We've all been doing that for ages.
Kevin: So it sounds like HTML5, on the surface you see tags like video and you go, “Oh, that’s going to make video so much simpler. It’s just going to be one tag.” But in the short term, it’s one more tag that you wrap around the gobbledygoop of two embedded objects with perhaps conditional comments for Internet Explorer so it adds to the complexity now as an investment in hopefully reducing that complexity in the future.
Kevin: So it sounds like HTML5, on the surface you see tags like video and you go, “Oh, that's going to make video so much simpler. It's just going to be one tag.” But in the short term, it's one more tag that you wrap around the gobbledygoop of two embedded objects with perhaps conditional comments for Internet Explorer so it adds to the complexity now as an investment in hopefully reducing that complexity in the future.
Bruce: But from a language perspective, it’s very, very simple, there’s no need to wrap it around objects and embeds. From a having to serve IE6 and IE7 and IE8 perspective you have to do that but there’s nothing in the language that’s terribly complex there but at least it has the ability to be backwards compatible. When you compare that with what they were trying to do with XHTML2 you can see why the W3C effort, in my opinion, my personal opinion, was rather in the doldrums and it was so good that the WHATWG came along. (Reciting) This is my personal opinion and it does not reflect the opinion of my employer, etc.
Bruce: But from a language perspective, it's very, very simple, there's no need to wrap it around objects and embeds. From a having to serve IE6 and IE7 and IE8 perspective you have to do that but there's nothing in the language that's terribly complex there but at least it has the ability to be backwards compatible. When you compare that with what they were trying to do with XHTML2 you can see why the W3C effort, in my opinion, my personal opinion, was rather in the doldrums and it was so good that the WHATWG came along. (Reciting) This is my personal opinion and it does not reflect the opinion of my employer, etc.
Kevin: Well, it is clear that HTML5, if you eliminate all the noise, if you look through that. It’s a good thing and it will make the web better. Even if they stopped work on it today, it’s already much better than what we’ve had before and I suppose if that weren’t true people like Kyle wouldn’t be so upset when there were signs of the process going off the rails.
Kevin: Well, it is clear that HTML5, if you eliminate all the noise, if you look through that. It's a good thing and it will make the web better. Even if they stopped work on it today, it's already much better than what we've had before and I suppose if that weren't true people like Kyle wouldn't be so upset when there were signs of the process going off the rails.
Kyle: That would definitely be right. I mean if it wasn’t a good product I probably wouldn’t be paying attention, people wouldn’t come read a comic about an angry squirrel talking about it. Regardless of the process it appears to be to me, there is no denying that I rather enjoy the product. It’s a tough sell right now to some of the shy-er developers out there which is more people than I would’ve imagined but I’m really excited for what can be done with it even today, let alone tomorrow.
Kyle: That would definitely be right. I mean if it wasn't a good product I probably wouldn't be paying attention, people wouldn't come read a comic about an angry squirrel talking about it. Regardless of the process it appears to be to me, there is no denying that I rather enjoy the product. It's a tough sell right now to some of the shy-er developers out there which is more people than I would've imagined but I'm really excited for what can be done with it even today, let alone tomorrow.
Kevin: Well, thank you guys. I think that’s a great place to end and it sounds like we’ve concluded that the future of HTML5, while not smooth but it does at least seem to be safe for now. So thanks again Bruce Lawson, Ian Lloyd and Kyle Weems for joining us today.
Kevin: Well, thank you guys. I think that's a great place to end and it sounds like we've concluded that the future of HTML5, while not smooth but it does at least seem to be safe for now. So thanks again Bruce Lawson, Ian Lloyd and Kyle Weems for joining us today.
Bruce: Thank you.
Bruce: Thank you.
Ian: Thanks guys.
Ian: Thanks guys.
Kevin: And thanks for listening to the SitePoint Podcast. If you have any thoughts or questions about today’s interview, please do get in touch.
凯文：感谢您收听SitePoint播客。 如果您对今天的采访有任何想法或疑问，请保持联系。
You can find SitePoint on Twitter @sitepointdotcom, and you can find me on Twitter @sentience.
你可以在Twitter上找到SitePoint @sitepointdotcom ，你可以找到我的Twitter @sentience 。
Visit sitepoint.com/podcast to leave comments on this show and to subscribe to receive every show automatically. We’ll be back next week with another news and commentary show with our usual panel of experts.
Visit sitepoint.com/podcast to leave comments on this show and to subscribe to receive every show automatically. 下周我们将与我们通常的专家小组一起再次发布新闻和评论节目。
This episode of the SitePoint Podcast was produced by Karn Broad and I’m Kevin Yank. Bye for now!
This episode of the SitePoint Podcast was produced by Karn Broad and I'm Kevin Yank. 暂时再见！
You can find SitePoint on Twitter @sitepointdotcom.
您可以在Twitter @sitepointdotcom上找到SitePoint 。
Have any thoughts about this interview? Please visit us at sitepoint.com/podcast to leave a comment on this show and to subscribe to receive every show automatically. Email podcast@sitepoint.com if you have any questions for us; we’d love to read them out on the show and give you our advice.
对这次采访有什么想法吗？ 请访问我们的网站sitepoint.com/podcast对该节目发表评论并订阅以自动接收每个节目。 如果您对我们有任何疑问，请发送电子邮件至podcast@sitepoint.com 。 我们很乐意在节目中朗读它们，并为您提供建议。
This episode of the SitePoint Podcast was produced by Karn Broad. Thank you for listening and have a happy, healthy, and successful 2010.
SitePoint播客的这一集由Karn Broad制作。 感谢您的聆听，祝您2010年愉快，健康，成功。
Theme music by Mike Mella.
Mike Mella的主题音乐。
Thanks for listening! Feel free to let us know how we’re doing, or to continue the discussion, using the comments field below.
谢谢收听！ 欢迎使用下面的评论字段让我们知道我们的状况，或者继续讨论。
翻译自: https://www.sitepoint.com/podcast-44-html5-is-a-beautiful-mess/
