Episode 48 of The SitePoint Podcast is now available! This week, Kevin Yank (@sentience) and Derek Powazek (@fraying), co-creator of JPG Magazine and creator of Fray, discuss the pros and cons of ebooks, what Apple’s iPad means to publishers big and small, and why print may be here to stay. A complete transcript of the interviews is provided below.
SitePoint Podcast的 第48集现已发布！ 本周， JPG杂志的共同创作者和Fray的创建者Kevin Yank( @sentience )和Derek Powazek ( @fraying )讨论了电子书的利弊，苹果公司的iPad对大小发行人意味着什么，以及为什么印刷可能待在这里。 下面提供了采访的完整笔录。
You can also download this episode as a standalone MP3 file. Here’s the link:
您也可以将本集下载为独立的MP3文件。 这是链接：
SitePoint Podcast #48: Publishing Futures with Derek Powazek (MP3, 51.2MB)
SitePoint Podcast＃48：使用Derek Powazek发布期货 ( MP3，51.2MB )
Kevin: February 12th, 2010. The pros and cons of ebooks, what Apple’s iPad means to publishers big and small, and why print may be here to stay. I’m Kevin Yank and this is the SitePoint Podcast #48: Publishing Futures with Derek Powazek.
凯文(Kevin)： 2010年2月12日。电子书的利弊，苹果iPad对大小发行人的意义，以及印刷品为何会保留下来。 我是Kevin Yank，这是SitePoint播客＃48：与Derek Powazek合作发布期货。
Hi there. Kevin Yank with you today for the SitePoint Podcast, and today I’m joined by Derek Powazek. I’m really excited about this show because Derek and I get to geek out about publishing. We do a lot of things at SitePoint, but one of the things we like to think we do well is publishing great books for web developers and designers, and Derek is a creative force of nature on the Web. He is at the heart of several sort of publishing initiatives that he’s grown up from nothing. JPG Magazine was probably the first thing that showed up on my radar, which is a … it was a digest, a collection of photography that was put together by a community of photographers who would submit photos and then vote on which ones made it into the magazine. More recently, Derek works with Hewlett Packard, consulting on a project called MagCloud, which is a print-on-demand service that allows anyone to upload a magazine, a fully laid-out and designed magazine, print it one copy at a time and ship it around the world to people who want to buy it.
嗨，您好。 凯文·扬克(Kevin Yank)今天与您一起参加SitePoint播客，今天， 德里克·波瓦泽克 ( Derek Powazek)也加入了我的行列 。 我对这次演出感到非常兴奋，因为我和Derek都对出版有所了解。 我们在SitePoint上做了很多事情，但我们想认为自己做得很好的一件事就是为Web开发人员和设计师出版了精美的书籍，而Derek是Web上自然的创造力。 他是从无到有的各种出版计划的核心。 JPG杂志可能是出现在我的雷达上的第一件事，这是一个摘要…是摄影作品集的摘要，由一群摄影师共同整理，然后提交照片，然后投票决定将哪些照片放入摄影棚。杂志。 最近，Derek与Hewlett Packard合作，为一个名为MagCloud的项目提供咨询，该项目是按需打印服务，任何人都可以上传一本杂志，一本完整版式和设计好的杂志，一次打印一份，然后将其运送到世界各地想要购买的人。
Derek also, sort of as a side project for him, but perhaps it’s the thing he’s best known for at the moment is Fray, a quarterly magazine filled with original writing and artwork, again contributed by people online who just want to get their stuff out there who people who enjoy reading it.
德里克(Derek)也是他的附带项目，但也许这是他目前最出名的东西， 弗雷(Fray )是一本季刊，里面充斥着原创作品和艺术品，再次由在线人士投稿，他们只想把自己的东西拿出来那里有谁喜欢阅读它。
So today Derek and I will talk about publishing, and specifically about digital versus print publishing—why digital perhaps hasn’t fulfilled the promise that it once had, what’s holding it back, and what’s keeping print around. So without further ado, I’d like to welcome Derek Powazek to the show.
因此，今天，我和德里克(Derek)和我将讨论出版，尤其是数字出版与印刷出版的关系。为什么数字出版可能没有兑现它曾经拥有的承诺，阻碍它发展的因素以及保持印刷业发展的承诺。 因此，事不宜迟，我想欢迎Derek Powazek参加演出。
Derek: It’s nice to be here. Thank you.
德里克：很高兴来到这里。 谢谢。
Kevin: So some would accuse you of sentimentality there. Could you fill us in on the path you’ve taken and why print has continued to play an important role?
凯文：所以有人会在那儿指责你的感性。 您能否向我们介绍您所走的道路，为什么印刷继续继续发挥重要作用？
Derek: Sure. Sure. So let’s see. It depends how far you want to go back but my background is in print. I studied journalism and photo journalism in college and I got out in 1995, which is when the Web was just starting to take off. At that time I applied to newspapers all over the country and all of them in the mid-90’s said, “Oh, we’re not hiring anymore. It’s a dark time for newspapers and we’re all going broke.” This was 1995, so newspapers have had a lot of experience with claiming to be on hard times.
德里克：当然。 当然。 让我们来看看。 这取决于您要返回多远，但我的背景已经印制。 我在大学期间学习了新闻学和图片新闻学，并于1995年离开互联网，那时网络才刚刚起步。 那时，我向全国各地的报纸提出了申请，他们都在90年代中期说：“哦，我们不再招聘了。 对于报纸来说，这是一个黑暗的时期，我们都快破产了。” 那是1995年，所以报纸在声称自己处在艰难时期时有很多经验。
My first job, in fact, working on a website was for a magazine and then I wound up working at HotWired which was the website component of Wired magazine.
实际上，我的第一份工作是在网站上工作，是为一本杂志工作，然后我结束了在Wired杂志的网站组成部分HotWired的工作。
So my background is in print and in journalism and so when I discovered the Web it was kind of the answer to a prayer of, “God, wouldn’t it be great to do all this journalism, storytelling, whatever you want to call it, and not be bound to paper?” In college I was the guy who drove my VW bug over Highway 17 over these mountains to pick up 8,000 copies of the newspaper we were publishing and drive them back to Santa Cruz to hand out. So the idea of being able to communicate and put out media without all the paper was great, and for my entire career I have just not been able to get rid of the paper.
因此，我的背景是印刷品和新闻业，所以当我发现网络时，这是对“上帝的祈祷”的一种回答，“做所有这些新闻，讲故事，不管你想怎么称呼，都很棒。 ，又不拘泥在纸上？” 在大学里，我是那个在17号高速公路上越过高山越过我的大众虫子的人，拿起我们正在出版的8,000份报纸，然后将它们送回圣克鲁斯分发。 因此，能够在没有所有论文的情况下进行交流和发布媒体的想法非常棒，在我的整个职业生涯中，我只是无法摆脱论文。
Kevin: Well, that’s it; in my mind you’re the paper guy. You’re the one who’s supposed to be telling me why paper is great.
凯文：好，就是这样。 在我看来，你是纸人。 您是应该告诉我为什么纸张很棒的人。
Derek: Well and paper is great. Why has paper stuck around? Well I think the problem is we still exist in the real world and until the moment where we can jack in cyberpunk-style and exist on the ’net, there’s still this real life component of our lives and that is where print fits really well. In fact when my wife, Heather and I started JPG Magazine, the idea in that case was actually specifically to take the best work out of the photo-blogging community where all this amazing photography was coming out and put it in print because viewing great photography in print is better than viewing it on a screen. There’s just more resolution. It’s a different experience to hold it in your hand, and it turns out that a lot of those people who participated online and posted all those photos to Flickr and other places really enjoyed having that magazine in print. So that tells me that there is a place for the digital exchange of information where to use the web for what it’s really, really good at—which is connecting far-flung people and spreading information for almost no cost—but there’s still a role for this print relic that exists in the real world with us.
德里克：嗯，纸张很棒。 为什么纸卡住了？ 好吧，我认为问题在于我们仍然存在于现实世界中，直到我们能够以计算机朋克风格出现并在网络上存在之前，仍然存在着我们生活中的现实生活这一部分，那就是印刷品非常合适。 实际上，当我和我的妻子希瑟(Heather)创办JPG杂志时，实际上是要从照片博客社区中汲取最好的作品，因为这些照片都出自所有令人惊叹的摄影作品，因为观看出色的摄影作品才得以印刷与在屏幕上查看相比，打印效果更好。 分辨率更高。 握在手中是一种不同的体验，事实证明，许多在线参与并将所有照片发布到Flickr和其他地方的人真的很喜欢印制该杂志。 因此，这告诉我，存在一个数字信息交换场所，可在其中使用Web真正真正擅长的功能-它连接了遥远的人们并免费传播信息-但仍然有一个作用与我们一起存在于现实世界中的这份印刷文物。
Kevin: There’s a romanticism surrounding print for sure. I mean the smell of the ink, the weight of the paper. I’m as digital a guy as you could find and still when I get a new issue of a magazine, as rarely as I buy them, when someone hands me one, I open it up and I go, “Oh, that’s the stuff!”
凯文：肯定有浪漫主义的印刷品。 我的意思是墨水的气味，纸张的重量。 我是一个像您一样可以找到的数字人，当我收到一本新杂志时，仍然很少见，我很少买，当有人递给我时，我打开它，然后说，“哦，那是东西！”
Derek: (Laughing) Well, speaking as a magazine publisher, I thank you for maintaining that, what did you call it earlier?
德里克：(笑)好吧，作为杂志发行人，我感谢您坚持这一点，您之前叫什么？
Kevin: Romanticism?
凯文：浪漫主义？
Derek: Yeah, that romanticism about print because I have the same thing. I mean honestly, I don’t know if this is too blue for the podcast but I remember sneaking into my parents’ bedroom and finding my dad’s Playboys and leafing through them. It was like, okay, yes there are naked girls involved in that, but there’s the physical product of the magazine with all the 70’s smoking ads and stuff in it … there’s something deeply wonderful about that kind of beautiful full color print object.
德里克：是的，那种关于印刷的浪漫主义，因为我有同样的想法。 我的意思是说实话，我不知道播客是否太蓝了，但我记得自己偷偷溜进了父母的卧室，找到了我父亲的花花公子，并翻阅它们。 好像，是的，是的，有裸体女孩参与其中，但是杂志的实体产品中包含了所有70年代的吸烟广告和相关内容……这种漂亮的全彩印刷对象真是太妙了。
Kevin: Oh, yeah. SitePoint is a publisher and we publish in print as well as digital. No one’s excited when the new PDF lands in their inbox or at least not as many people are as excited. I think the people who worked on it are. When a box of newly printed books comes to the door, even though we saw the finished PDF a month ago in most cases, everyone crowds around, opens up the box, everyone needs a copy for their desk … it’s really exciting.
凯文：哦，是的。 SitePoint是出版商，我们以印刷形式和数字形式出版。 当新的PDF进入收件箱时，没有人感到兴奋，或者至少没有那么多的人感到兴奋。 我认为从事此工作的人是。 当一盒新印刷的书籍来到门口时，即使在大多数情况下一个月前我们看到完成的PDF，每个人都围成一团，打开盒子，每个人都需要办公桌复印件……这确实令人兴奋。
Derek: It’s a different experience, absolutely. I think in the same way that digital video recorders didn’t kill film, they just made it more rare and they made it more purposeful, right? So there’s still plenty of stuff that’s shot on film but now it’s a choice. It’s a choice between whether you want the look of digital or the look of film or what you’re doing, and I think we’re still trying to figure out when it comes to content—storytelling, journalism, photography, illustration—where it belongs, and there are certainly some kinds of content that are just going to work better on computer screens because it’s searchable, archivable, communicatable, all that wonderful stuff about the Internet that we don’t have to talk about because everybody listening to a podcast already knows it, but we don’t have to become so enamored with it that we lose sight of the stuff that print is really good at.
德里克：绝对是另一回事。 我认为数字录像机不会杀死电影，它们只是使电影变得更加稀有并且使电影更加有目的，对吗？ 因此，电影中仍然有很多东西可以拍摄，但是现在这是一个选择。 您是要选择数字化外观还是电影外观或正在做什么，这是一个选择，我想我们仍在尝试弄清涉及内容(讲故事，新闻，摄影，插图)的地方属于，肯定会有一些内容可以在计算机屏幕上更好地工作，因为它是可搜索，可归档，可通信的，所有我们不必谈论的关于Internet的奇妙内容，因为每个人都在收听播客已经知道了，但我们并没有成为它如此迷恋我们忽略的东西，打印是真的好。
Kevin: You mentioned the high resolution which is really good for photographs, and artwork as well when it comes to your current project, Fray. Are there other rational reasons for preferring print?
凯文：您提到了高分辨率，这对于您当前的项目Fray来说确实非常适合照片和艺术品。 还有其他合理的理由更喜欢印刷吗？
Derek: I think there are some and here it is off the top of my head. If your business is selling content, exchanging money for content—for lack of a better word—which means stories, things written down in text and images… I have been trying for 15 years to get people to part with money for digital content and in my experience so far, it doesn’t work because there is so much of it that is free. Unless you’re selling porn of some kind—and by porn, I mean naked pictures but also financial porn, things that are tied to your … some baser instincts let’s say of making money, getting ahead, and being aroused. If you’re doing Fray, if you’re doing storytelling or journalism, it’s exceptionally hard. Like, I think it might be insolvably hard to get people to pony up with money for that digital content, and it completely makes sense when you realize that most people out there had paid money for their hardware. They’ve paid money for their internet connection. They’ve already paid a ton of money just to get to your website. To ask them to then to pay money for something that, let’s be honest, it’s just ones and zeroes on their screen and could really suck. That’s really hard. It’s really, really hard.
德里克：我认为有些东西在这里，而我却不在意。 如果您的业务是出售内容，则用钱来换取内容-缺少一个更好的词-这意味着用文字和图像写下的故事，事物……我已经尝试了15年，以使人们为数字内容和内容投入金钱到目前为止，根据我的经验，这是行不通的，因为其中有很多是免费的。 除非您出售某种色情片-所谓色情片，我指的是裸露的照片，也包括金融色情片，与您有关的事物……一些基本的本能，比如说赚钱，取得成功并引起人们的关注。 如果您正在做Fray，或者在讲故事或新闻，那将非常困难。 就像，我认为让人们为这种数字内容花钱是很难解决的，当您意识到那里的大多数人都为他们的硬件付钱时，这完全有道理。 他们已经为互联网连接付费。 他们已经花了很多钱才能进入您的网站。 老实说，要他们付钱购买某种东西，这只是他们屏幕上的零，可能真的很烂。 真的很难 真的，真的很难。
So. Why print? Because people still pay money for print, and one of the really interesting things I’ve observed with doing Fray as a quarterly magazine and as a free website is that if you ask people to, say, pay $5 for the ability to access online content, it’ll be like pulling teeth, but if you ask them to pay $12 to receive something beautiful in the mail, they do. They will. It’s much easier to convince people to pay for that print, so that’s a very businesslike reason of why print still matters is because there’s still a value attached to it.
所以。 为什么要打印？ 因为人们仍然花钱买印刷品，我观察到Fray作为季刊和免费网站时发现的一件非常有趣的事情是，如果您要求人们支付5美元才能访问在线内容，就好比拔牙，但是如果您要求他们支付12美元才能收到邮件中的精美礼物，他们就会这样做。 他们会的。 说服人们为该印刷品付款要容易得多，因此，印刷品仍然很重要的一个非常商业化的原因是，因为印刷品仍然具有价值。
Kevin: And the value isn’t just what people will pay for it. I mean, print still has a sense of authority about it. Something that’s in print is given more weight and I imagine just getting people to write for something like Fray must be easier because there is a print product attached to it.
凯文：价值不只是人们会为此付出的代价。 我的意思是，印刷仍然对此具有权威感。 印刷品的重量会增加，我想让人们去为Fray之类的东西写东西一定很容易，因为上面附有印刷品。
Derek: It is, and when we were publishing JPG, the one thing we heard consistently from photographers is that— So if your photo was accepted— I don’t know if this is still the case, but when we were running it, if your photo was accepted to be published in JPG, you got a hundred dollars and a free subscription and your photo was in print and of those three perks, the thing we heard consistently from participants was, “Yeah, yeah—a hundred bucks is great. Subscription, whatever—I’m going to buy one anyway. But look, it’s my photo in print!” like that was the value.
Derek：是的，当我们发布JPG时，我们一致地从摄影师那里听到的一件事是-因此，如果您的照片被接受了，我不知道情况是否仍然如此，但是当我们运行它时，是否您的照片已被接受以JPG格式发布，您获得了一百美元，并获得了免费订阅，并且您的照片已经印刷，并且属于这三个津贴，我们从参与者那里听到的一句话是：“是的，是的-一百美元非常棒。 订阅，随便-我还是要买一个。 但是，看， 这是我打印的照片！ 那样才是价值。
So it definitely means something to the participants. And the other crazy thing we found when we were doing JPG is that by far, the majority of our subscribers were people who did not subscribe to any other magazines. I thought that was weird. Like, you’d think, “Okay, maybe the people who like print would buy it.” But what we learned was it was the people who felt involved in the creation of it who were buying it. The people who were submitting their photos, voting on other people’s photos, who felt involved in the community were the ones buying it.
因此，这绝对对参与者意味着意义。 当我们进行JPG时，我们发现的另一个疯狂的事情是，到目前为止，我们的大多数订户都是没有订阅任何其他杂志的人。 我以为那很奇怪。 就像，您会认为，“好吧，也许喜欢印刷品的人会购买它。” 但是我们了解到的是，那些购买它的人参与了它的创建。 提交照片，对其他人的照片进行投票的人，认为参与社区活动的人就是购买照片的人。
So I think there’s a real opportunity here for media makers to learn from this to say, “Well maybe the reason why people aren’t buying newspapers and magazines is because they feel completely disconnected from the product, right? Because the old style of journalism was sit down, shut up and consume what we say. And in a world of collaborative media where everybody can participate online, everybody can make content, maybe what these media organizations need to do is tear down the walls a little bit and let people feel involved in the making of it, and then they’ll buy the product.
因此，我认为媒体制造商有一个真正的机会可以学习说：“也许人们之所以不购买报纸和杂志是因为他们觉得自己与产品完全脱节了，对吗？ 因为过去的新闻业是坐下来的，所以闭嘴并接受我们所说的话。 在每个人都可以在线参与的协作媒体世界中，每个人都可以制作内容，也许这些媒体组织需要做的就是稍微撕开墙壁，让人们感到参与制作， 然后他们会购买产品。
Kevin: You mentioned the community around JPG and how it was so important to its success. Is there a community around Fray today?
凯文：您提到了JPG周围的社区，以及它对成功的重要性。 今天在弗雷附近有一个社区吗？
Derek: There is, but I have been very stingy and I haven’t given them many tools to talk to each other. So when Fray started we did a very standard editorial process for story submissions and basically every story was— The HTML was handcrafted by me or a guest designer and put up. Then every story had a conversation thread attached to it where the community could tell their story in return. This was blog comments 101 but it was before any of that happened. We were using these hacked guest book scripts.
德里克(Derek)：有，但是我一直很ing，没有给他们很多工具来互相交流。 因此，当Fray开始时，我们为故事提交进行了非常标准的编辑过程，并且基本上每个故事都是-HTML由我或客座设计师手工制作并提出。 然后，每个故事都附加了一个对话线程，社区可以在其中回报他们的故事。 这是博客评论101，但是这还没有发生。 我们正在使用这些被黑的留言簿脚本。
Kevin: Was this before Fray was a print product?
凯文：这是在弗雷成为印刷品之前吗？
Derek: Oh, yeah. This was 1996.
德里克：哦，是的。 那是1996年。
So we did Fray as using that kind of model for about a decade and then in the era of copious blogging we thought, “Well, what’s the point? Everybody has a stage of their own now so we don’t really need to do this anymore.” So we kind of went on hiatus and after JPG, after I left JPG I thought. “Well, I know that this model works. Let’s bring Fray back but this time as a print thing.” So we’re actually evolving in reverse, where we started as a website and backed into being a quarterly magazine. I think the next thing we’ll do is a telegraph or something. I’m not sure. I’ve heard “the talkies” are really big.
因此，在使用Fray时，我们使用Fray已有大约十年的时间，然后在博客充裕的时代，我们想到：“那是什么意思？ 现在每个人都有自己的舞台，因此我们真的不再需要这样做了。” 所以我们有点中断了，在JPG之后，我离开JPG之后我想。 “嗯，我知道这个模型有效。 让我们带回Fray，但这一次是作为印刷品。” 因此，我们实际上在反向发展，我们从网站开始，后来又发展成为季刊。 我认为我们下一步要做的是电报之类的东西。 我不确定。 我听说“对讲机”非常大。
Kevin: So is it working the same way as JPG did? Do you get a lot of submissions for an issue of Fray and some people just they’re out of luck? They don’t get in?
凯文：那么它的工作方式与JPG一样吗？ 您是否收到许多有关Fray的投稿，有些人只是运气不好？ 他们不进去吗？
Derek: Yeah, definitely. So what we’re doing now is each issue is themed. We put out a call for submissions—very traditional, editorial call for submissions. People submit. Most of them don’t get in. Some of them we send back and say could you work on this. Some of them are great and those go on to the illustrators that illustrate them and then I put it all together in InDesign. We’ve tried various methods for making the print, everything from kind of very artisan offset presses to using MagCloud for the printing part and that’s been very interesting too.
德里克：是的，当然。 因此，我们现在要做的是将每个问题都作为主题。 我们发出了征集意见书，这是非常传统的社论式征集意见书。 人们提交。 他们中的大多数人都无法进入。其中一些人我们发回邮件，说您可以解决这个问题。 他们中的一些很棒，然后继续到插图画家那里对它们进行说明，然后我将它们全部整合到InDesign中。 我们尝试了各种印刷方法，从非常熟练的胶印机到将MagCloud用作印刷部件，这也非常有趣。
Kevin: Fray has changed shape for three out of its four issues so far, it’s come in a different shape than the last time.
凯文：弗雷到目前为止已经改变了四个问题中的三个问题，它的形状与上次有所不同。
Derek: That’s right, yeah.
德里克：是的，是的。
Kevin: Talk about that process and would you be very disappointed if I said I liked the first issue the best in terms of …
凯文：说说这个过程，如果我说我最喜欢第一个期刊，就……，您会感到非常失望吗？
Derek: Not at all, not at all. Most prints products exist— Let’s put it this way: their formative years were when the Web didn’t exist. So if you’re going to create print in a world where the Web already exists, you have to really make the print special. It has to be worth the user’s time. You can’t just do the same thing over and over again. I mean, the ultimate example of this is McSweeney’s which is the brilliant quarterly printed thing that was started by Dave Eggers and every issue is something completely different. One of them was just kind of cards in a box. Another one was a hardcover book that could be read from two sides. So you flip it over and it’s a different cover. They’re all different sizes, and they’re playing with print means to be print. The same organization just did a broadsheet newspaper that was like 11×17, big traditional newsprint.
德里克：一点也不，一点也不。 大多数印刷产品都存在-让我们这样说：它们的形成年代是不存在网络的时候。 因此，如果要在已经存在Web的世界中创建打印件，则必须真正使打印件特别。 必须花费用户的时间。 您不能一遍又一遍地做同样的事情。 我的意思是，这方面的最终例子是McSweeney ，这是由戴夫·艾格斯(Dave Eggers)发行的出色的季度印刷品，每期都是完全不同的东西。 其中之一就是盒子里的卡片。 另一本是精装书，可以从两方面阅读。 因此，您将其翻转，这是另一种封面。 它们都是不同的尺寸，并且正在使用打印方式进行打印。 相同的组织只是制作了一张宽大的报纸，像11×17，是传统的大型新闻纸。
Because if you’re going to try to sell something, I think you have to keep it interesting. If you realize what you’re selling is not the information, it’s the coveted object, selling into the community that hopefully cares about it, you have to keep playing with it. I’ve been doing experiments to see if I can make the business part work because printing paper and putting it in envelopes to mail is very expensive, especially if you’re in Australia and I’m not. So I’ve been playing with a lot of different methods to see how the money works out too.
因为如果您要尝试出售某物，我认为您必须保持其趣味性。 如果您意识到所出售的不是信息，那是令人垂涎的对象，希望将其出售给社区，并希望它在乎，您必须继续使用它。 我一直在做实验，以查看是否可以使业务部分正常工作，因为打印纸并将其放在信封中邮寄非常昂贵，特别是如果您在澳大利亚而不是在澳大利亚。 因此，我一直在尝试许多不同的方法，以了解这笔钱是如何产生的。
Kevin: Right.
凯文：对。
Derek: Traditionally, print gets cheaper the more you do. So if you do a print run of 1,000, it’s going to wind up being $10 a copy for everything you’re doing, but if you do a print run of 100,000 it’s going to be less than $1 because there are economies of scale with this kind of mass production.
德里克(Derek)：传统上，印刷越便宜，您做的越多。 因此，如果您进行1,000次打印，那么您所做的一切将以每本10美元的价格出售，但是如果您进行100,000次的打印，则将低于1美元，因为这样做具有规模效应。一种大规模生产。
What’s really interesting about what we’re doing at MagCloud—where I’m a consultant on the project so full disclosure—it’s all print on demand so the price is the same whether you print one or whether you print a hundred. And when you take away the economies of scale, it completely flattens out the hierarchy where it’s just as profitable to do some really interesting niche project that is going to be interesting to you and a hundred other people in the world as it is to do some celebrity gossip rag. So I think if we’re really successful on flattening out the cost structure, it could give rise to some very interesting media that would not have been supportable in the old traditional method of printing.
关于我们在MagCloud上所做的事情，真正有趣的是-我是该项目的顾问，所以需要全面披露-它们都是按需打印的，因此无论打印一个还是一百个，价格都一样。 当您摆脱规模经济时，它会完全拉平层次结构，在该层次上进行一些非常有趣的利基项目，这对您和世界上一百多个人都将是一件有意义的事情，名人八卦抹布。 因此，我认为，如果我们在平整成本结构方面确实取得了成功，则可能会引起一些非常有趣的媒体，而这些媒体在旧的传统打印方法中是无法支持的。
Kevin: It’s interesting to hear you talk about the playing with the format though. Did you grow up in a house with a collection of National Geographics?
凯文：听到您谈论这种格式的演奏很有趣。 您是在拥有《国家地理》收藏的房屋中长大的吗？
Derek: Of course I did.
德里克：当然可以。
Kevin: Because I did too, and there was the wall of yellow in the bookcase, but the ones I always got out to play with were the ones with the holographic covers, the ones that folded out; the ones that they played with the formats were the most intriguing and the ones that you kept going back to.
凯文：因为我也这样做，书柜里有黄色的墙，但我经常出去玩的那些是全息封面的，那些是折叠的。 他们使用这些格式播放的音乐最吸引人，而您一直回头看。
Derek: Yeah and yet I don’t think you could pick a better example of a magazine that has changed less…
德里克：是的，但我认为您不能从杂志变化较小的例子中找到更好的例子……
Kevin: Yeah, it’s ironic.
凯文：是的，具有讽刺意味。
Derek: …over its lifespan because you could really put them all in a bookshelf and they would all be the same height and the same color, except for maybe an occasional issue.
德里克(Derek)： …在它的寿命中，因为您确实可以将它们全部放在书架中，并且它们的高度和颜色都相同，除了偶尔的问题。
Kevin: And one year in I can tell that’s never going to happen with Fray.
凯文：一年之内，我可以说弗雷永远不会发生这种情况。
Derek: Oh no, no I’m already— Maybe it’s just that I get bored of things rather easily but I’m playing with it and so that first issue was smaller but it was also traditionally bound, in that the magazine was actually physically stitched together, which is a very, very traditional method of bookbinding. The binding on that book will probably last longer than the pages and I wanted to do that because it was the first issue and it was very special, and I still have too many of them in my house. And it’s super expensive, so that’s why with the next one, we went the totally opposite way and said okay, let’s do this all with the newfangled tools. And so it was only through MagCloud, which means it was printed on digital presses and folded and stapled. That allowed us to do— There was a pull-out poster in that one. So you can do pull-out posters in something that is saddle-stitched but you can’t do that in the more traditional Smithson bindings.
Derek：哦，不，不，我已经-也许只是我对事情很无聊而已，但是我正在玩它，所以第一期发行的规模较小，但从传统上讲，它的装订范围是因为该杂志实际上是缝合在一起，这是非常非常传统的装订方法。 那本书的装订时间可能会比书页还要长，我想这样做是因为这是第一期，而且非常特别，而且我家中仍然有很多书。 而且它非常昂贵，因此这就是为什么在下一个中，我们采用完全相反的方式说，好吧，让我们使用新奇的工具来完成所有这些工作。 因此，这仅是通过MagCloud进行的，这意味着它是在数字印刷机上印刷并折叠和装订的。 这使我们能够做—在那张海报中有一张海报。 因此，您可以使用马鞍形缝制的海报来制作海报，但不能在更传统的Smithson装订中进行。
And then the third one we said, “Well, let’s do this one perfect bound but not with the fancy stitching, to see how that comes out.” So it’s all a grand experiment and if I had much more money or many more subscribers, we’d do a hardcover or something just to play with. I think because we’re still trying to find out like what is the point of having a print product in the world where the Web is obviously the dominant information exchange medium.
然后第三个人说：“好吧，让我们完成一个完美的装订，但不要花哨的针脚，看看结果如何。” 因此，这是一个巨大的实验，如果我有更多的钱或更多的订阅者，我们将进行精装本或其他类似的事情。 我想是因为我们仍在努力寻找在世界上拥有印刷产品的意义，而在网络上，印刷产品显然是主要的信息交换媒介。
Kevin: Yeah. Well, there you go podcast listeners. Subscribe to Fray so I can get my hardcover.
凯文：是的。 好吧，那里有播客听众。 订阅Fray，以便获得精装本。
Derek: (Laughing) There you go.
德里克：(笑)你去了。
Kevin: Let’s go to the other end of the spectrum and talk about ebooks for a bit.
凯文：让我们去探讨另一端的电子书。
Do you read many ebooks? Have you tried many of the ebook reading solutions?
你看很多电子书吗？ 您是否尝试过许多电子书阅读解决方案？
Derek: I can say that I’m well versed in the world of PDF because that’s part of understanding print but I haven’t consumed a lot of ebooks. We have a Kindle in the house and my wife adores it and so she probably has shifted about 50% of her book buying to the Kindle. I am less enthused with it because I think I’m spoiled by my iPhone. Having any kind of screen at this point that I can’t flip through is just annoying to me and I think Amazon knows that which is why they just bought a touch sensitive screen company so it’s clear that that’s where they’ll go eventually too.
Derek：我可以说我精通PDF领域，因为那是理解印刷的一部分，但是我并没有消费很多电子书。 我们家里有一个Kindle，我的妻子很喜欢它，因此她可能已将购买书本的约50％转移到了Kindle。 我不太喜欢它，因为我认为我对iPhone宠坏了。 此时我无法翻阅任何类型的屏幕，这让我很烦，我认为亚马逊知道这就是为什么他们刚刚购买了触摸屏公司，所以很显然，这也是他们最终的选择。
Kevin: Okay. So no touch screen yet on the Kindle but obviously these devices are catching your eye so what do you like about the idea, if not the current experience of digital media?
凯文：好的。 因此，Kindle上还没有触摸屏，但是显然这些设备吸引了您的注意，如果不是当前的数字媒体体验，您对这个想法有何看法？
Derek: Well, I’ll give you my fantasy and I’m not alone in having this fantasy.
德里克：好吧，我会给你我的幻想，而拥有这个幻想的人并不孤单。
Kevin: This is the fantasy you posted about just before Apple’s iPad came out.
凯文：这是您在苹果iPad刚发布时发布的幻想。
Derek: Yes. Yes.
德里克：是的。 是。
Kevin: I think we all had our own fantasy for that device.
凯文：我认为我们所有人对该设备都有自己的幻想。
Derek: Oh, we so did. In fact, I think the most intriguing thing about the iPad right now is that it does not actually exist in any way besides locked to a table in Cupertino, right?
德里克：哦，我们也是。 实际上，我认为关于iPad的最有趣的事情是，除了锁在Cupertino的桌子上外，它实际上不存在任何其他形式，对吧？
Kevin: Or in Steven Colbert’s jacket pocket.
凯文：或者在史蒂文·科尔伯特的外套口袋里。
Derek: Oh, that guy. Oh, yes! So okay, except for Steve Jobs and Colbert, it doesn’t actually exist and it’s already a Rorschach test for whatever your hopes and fears are. So the programmers are freaked out that it’s going to destroy programming. The newspapers and magazines are freaked out that it’s going to destroy newspapers and magazines. Booksellers are completely wigged that it’s going to destroy books, etc., etc. I don’t even want to talk about Flash … that was your last podcast.
德里克：哦，那个家伙。 哦，是的！ 好吧，除了史蒂夫·乔布斯和科尔伯特，它实际上并不存在，无论您的希望和恐惧如何，它已经是罗夏墨迹测验。 因此，程序员非常害怕它将破坏编程。 报纸和杂志吓坏了，它将摧毁报纸和杂志。 书商完全不知道它将销毁书籍等。我什至不想谈论Flash……那是您的最后一个播客。
Kevin: We covered it. We covered it.
凯文：我们覆盖了它。 我们覆盖了它。
Derek: Yeah, I know. So my fantasy for the device goes something along the lines of I’ve observed that it is impossible to get people to pay for content online outside of some shallow circumstances, some very specific, shallow used cases, and I’ve observed that it’s possible to get people to pay for print, and my theory is that’s because consuming media in print is still better for certain things than consuming it online. So the lavish, full page, beautiful stories, long New Yorker articles … Rolling Stone … the things that magazines are really good at.
德里克：是的，我知道。 因此，我对设备的幻想与我观察到的相似，我发现在某些浅薄的情况，某些非常具体的浅薄使用案例之外，人们无法在线上支付内容的费用，而且我观察到有可能让人们为印刷支付费用，而我的理论是，在某些方面，与在网上消费相比，在某些方面消费印刷媒体仍然更好。 因此，大量，整页，美丽的故事，《纽约客》的长篇文章……滚石乐队……杂志真正擅长的事情。
Kevin: The high fidelity experience.
凯文：高保真体验。
Derek: That’s right. And even a focused experience. The Web is a very multi-tasky and ADD but a magazine is not multitasking; a magazine has your attention.
德里克：是的。 甚至是专心的体验。 Web是一个多任务处理和添加功能，而杂志不是多任务处理。 杂志引起您的注意。
Kevin: Well, I’ve said that a few times about the iPad. The first time a tweet pops up over the novel I’m reading, game over.
凯文：嗯，我已经说过几次关于iPad的事情。 我正在阅读的小说第一次出现推文，游戏结束了。
Derek: Which it won’t do because it doesn’t have multi-tasking so don’t worry about it. At least we think but again, no one has held one except for Steven Colbert.
德里克(Derek)：不会这样做是因为它没有多任务处理，所以不用担心。 至少我们认为，但是再说一次，除了史蒂文·科尔伯特，没有人举行过一场。
My theory is, people will pay for print because it’s fundamentally a better experience for media consumption for certain kinds of media. My hope was if the iPad could do the impossible of making media consumption really sexy but still digital, we might for the first time have something that people would be willing to spend money on. Now, that’s just a guess and it’s assuming a bunch of stuff, but I think the hardware is pretty much what I expected. They’re adding books to their iTunes Store, which is a good first step but they’re going to be way too expensive because of publishing media having a stranglehold on what can be published, but I actually think that’s great because it’s going to give independent publishers like me a way to undercut them and authors to just publish themselves. But the iPad does nothing in its current state, we think, for newspapers and magazines. They’re not in the iTunes Store. The answer from Apple was basically people can use their website—which again, can’t pay for—or you can make an app, which you’re going to have to pay a programmer to create and then maybe be able to sell.
我的理论是，人们会为印刷付费，因为从根本上来说，对于某些类型的媒体而言，这是一种更好的媒体消费体验。 我的希望是，如果iPad能够做到使媒体消费真正性感而又仍然数字化，那我们可能会第一次拥有人们愿意花钱的东西。 现在，这只是一个猜测，并假设了很多东西，但是我认为硬件几乎是我所期望的。 他们正在向iTunes Store中添加书籍，这是一个很好的第一步，但由于发布媒体对可发布内容的控制而束手无策，因此它们的价格将会太高，但我认为这很棒，因为它将像我这样的独立出版商可以削弱他们，而作者可以自己出版。 但我们认为，iPad在目前的状态下对报纸和杂志无能为力。 它们不在iTunes Store中。 苹果公司的回答是，人们基本上可以使用他们的网站，而这又是付费的，或者您可以制作一个应用程序，而这需要付费给程序员才能创建，然后才可以出售。
So the iPad is not going to make our hopes and dreams come true…
因此，iPad不会使我们的希望和梦想成真……
Kevin: It sounds like it’s part of the solution.
凯文：听起来这是解决方案的一部分。
Derek: But it’s a step.
德里克：但这是一个步骤。
Kevin: Yeah. Yeah.
凯文：是的。 是的
Derek: I think it’s a stumble in the right direction. I think it depends on its ubiquity, so we’re going to find out how much it sells. I think it’s a sure thing that it won’t be the only touch sensitive “pad” that someone is trying to sell you. There’s going to be a lot of other companies that put them out and then we’re going to have accessibility problems just like we always do. It’s going to take us a few years to figure this out. But in a few years, if there are a lot of touch-sensitive, beautiful media consumption devices sitting around and there’s a way to access a common format on all of them whether it’s EPUB or PDF, I think we’re inching towards a situation where you can use free content on the Internet to raise community, to raise awareness of your media brand, to do all the things that the Web is really good at, to create content and create submissions and activity around the content.
德里克：我认为这是朝正确方向前进的绊脚石。 我认为这取决于它的普遍性，因此我们将找出它的销量。 我认为这肯定是不会有人试图向您出售您的唯一触摸式“触摸板”。 将会有很多其他公司将它们淘汰，然后我们将像往常一样遇到可访问性问题。 我们需要几年的时间才能弄清楚这一点。 但是，几年后，如果周围有很多触敏，精美的媒体消费设备，并且有一种方法可以访问所有这些设备上的通用格式(无论是EPUB还是PDF)，我认为我们正朝着这种情况发展在这里，您可以使用Internet上的免费内容来建立社区，提高对媒体品牌的认识，做Web真正擅长的所有事情，创建内容以及围绕内容创建提交和活动。
You can use print for what it’s good at, which is archival, beautiful, rich keepsakes. And then there’s going to be this third thing, which is this paid-for digital content that exists somewhere in the middle that should be cheaper than print—and this is the thing that publishers need to learn, it has to be about half of what the print version is and then people might actually pay for it—and I think then you’ll be able to see some models that come out of that.
您可以将印刷品用于档案，精美，丰富的纪念品，这是它的优势。 然后是第三件事，那就是这种中间层的付费数字内容应该比印刷便宜一些，这是出版商需要学习的东西，大约是书本的一半。是印刷版本，然后人们可能会为此付费—我想您将可以看到一些由此产生的模型。
My hope is that— I was in my 20s when the Web really took off and that is what propelled my career and threw me into this spot where I am and I’m really happy that that happened to me. My hope is that for the next batch of 20 year olds coming up in a few years that this is going to become for them what the Web was for us, which was this new, exciting platform that may, this time, have a business model attached to it. We’ll see.
我的希望是，我20多岁时网络才真正兴起，这推动了我的职业生涯，并使我进入了这个位置，我真的很高兴发生这种事情。 我希望对于几年后出现的下一批20岁年轻人来说，这将对他们来说成为网络对我们的意义，这是这个新的令人兴奋的平台，这一次可能会具有商业模式附加到它。 我们拭目以待。
Kevin: Down here in Australia one of the things that really, I spend a lot of time thinking about in connection to digital reading, is the broken rights systems where publishers for different countries have the distribution rights for just that country.
凯文：在澳大利亚这里，我花了很多时间思考与数字阅读有关的事情之一，就是权利制度受到破坏，不同国家/地区的出版商仅拥有该国家/地区的发行权。
Derek: And you guys are in the middle of copyright kerfuffle, aren’t you?
Derek：你们正处于版权混战之中，不是吗？
Kevin: We’re always in the middle of a copyright kerfuffle. Which one are you talking about?
凯文：我们总是处于版权混战之中。 你在说哪一个？
Derek: When I was there, there were protests coming up because of a version of the DMCA that was going to happen. And just today, I heard about the Men at Work sample, which is not about publishing, but is about copyright. Did you hear about that?
德里克(Derek)：当我在那里时，由于即将发布的DMCA版本而引起了抗议。 就在今天，我听说了《工作中的男人》样本，这与发布无关，而与版权有关。 您听说过吗？
Kevin: No.
凯文：不。
Derek: I know about something in Australia that you don’t know about! {laughing} Do you come from the land down under? The flute loop in that?
德里克(Derek)：我知道您不知道的澳大利亚事情！ {笑}您来自地下吗？ 长笛循环在那？
Kevin: Yeah.
凯文：是的。
Derek: It was based on another song and a judge just ruled that Men at Work has to pay damages…
德里克(Derek)：它是根据另一首歌曲改编而成的，法官刚刚裁定“工作中的男人”必须赔偿损失……
Kevin: Oh, man!
凯文：哦，天哪！
Derek: …to rights holder of that song for that little— for like a musical reference in the flute part in that song. Sorry, random.
德里克(Derek)： …少给那首歌的版权持有人—就像那首长笛中的音乐参考一样。 对不起，随机。
Kevin: But yeah, you look at something like the Kindle Store—the Amazon Kindle store—in Australia, there is almost nothing in it. It’s one tenth the size of the US Kindle store. I don’t know what someone like you would have to contribute to a conversation like this, but this is something that for outside of the United States and to some extent outside of Europe where there are also, usually, good publishing arrangements in place for any book that someone who’s going to want to read, this is the big problem—that we have these great devices, we have these great formats, but no one will sell us the books that we want on them.
凯文：但是，是的，您会看到澳大利亚的Kindle商店(亚马逊Kindle商店)之类的东西。 它是美国Kindle商店的十分之一。 我不知道像您这样的人必须为这样的对话做出什么贡献，但这对于美国以外的地区(在某种程度上对于欧洲以外的地区)来说，通常也有适当的发布安排任何想读书的人，这都是一个大问题-我们拥有如此出色的设备，拥有如此出色的格式，但是没有人会向我们出售我们想要的书。
Derek: Yeah. And again, I would lay the blame for that at the feet of the publishing companies because there’s nothing in copyright law that is preventing me from selling my book in Australia or the United States. It’s the rights agreements that the publishing companies worked out, and they worked out these right agreements because when you had to put a bunch of books on a boat for a month or whatever it is to get from one country to another, it made sense to basically sell those publishing rights to a local company.
德里克：是的。 再说一次，我要为此归咎于出版公司，因为版权法中没有任何规定可以阻止我在澳大利亚或美国出售图书。 这是出版公司制定的权利协议，它们也制定了这些权利协议，因为当您不得不将一堆书放在船上一个月或要从一个国家运到另一个国家时，基本上将这些发行权出售给本地公司。
I would say, “Well I have rights to publish in this country and I am going to sell you the right to publish my stuff in your country.” And there wasn’t much competition there because it’s such a pain in the butt to get the books from one side to the other. But with the Internet and digital material, that makes no sense. And these publishing companies are kind of bound by the legal agreements that they have already made.
我会说：“好吧，我有权在这个国家/地区出版，我将向您出售在您的国家/地区出版我的图书的权利。” 而且那里没有太多竞争，因为将书从一侧转移到另一侧非常痛苦。 但是利用互联网和数字资料，这毫无意义。 这些出版公司受制于它们已经订立的法律协议。
Again, color me optimistic, but I think it’s going to give small upstart publishing companies an edge because a smaller company could have come out and say, “We’re not going to do that crazy thing because we’re starting in the age of the Internet and we know better, so we’re going to secure world wide rights with the author from the outset, and by the way, we’ll probably have to pay the author a lot more or give them better terms because the author could do it themselves if you’re not nice to them.”
再说一次，我乐观，但我认为这将给小型新兴出版公司一个优势，因为一个较小的公司可能会说：“我们不会做那疯狂的事情，因为我们是从20世纪开始的时代开始的互联网，我们知道的更好，所以我们将从一开始就确保与作者的全球版权，而且，我们可能必须向作者支付更多的费用或给他们更好的条件，因为作者可以如果您对他们不好，请自己做。”
Kevin: It looks like that’s what Amazon is trying to be. They’re trying to cut out not only one middle man, but two middle men. They want to become the publisher, the distributor worldwide for digital.
凯文：看起来这就是亚马逊想要做的。 他们不仅在裁员，而且在裁员。 他们想成为发行商，成为全球数字发行商。
Derek: One of the reasons they’re in so much trouble— I mean, yes you’re right, and they’re in so much trouble because they’re playing both sides of the fence. They have programs that deal with authors directly and they have programs that deal with the publishing houses and it’s very hard to make both of those contingents happy at the same time because they want different things.
德里克(Derek)：他们陷入困境的原因之一-我的意思是，是的，你是对的，而他们陷入困境的原因是，他们在篱笆的两旁打球。 他们有直接与作者打交道的程序，也有与出版社打交道的程序，很难让这两个特遣队同时感到高兴，因为他们想要不同的事物。
It’s very, very similar to what happened with the music labels and the Internet. The music labels used to be the only way your band could get out into the world, and now Jonathan Coulton has a website and has more people buying MP3s from him, and makes more money from those MP3s, than he ever would have at a label. He doesn’t need them.
这与音乐唱片公司和互联网所发生的事情非常非常相似。 音乐标签曾经是您的乐队走出世界的唯一途径，现在乔纳森·库尔顿(Jonathan Coulton)拥有一个网站，并且有更多的人从他那里购买MP3，并从这些MP3中赚钱，这比他在唱片公司所拥有的要多。 。 他不需要它们。
In the same way, authors are going to realize, “Well, if I go to this publishing house, they’re going to pay me 10 cents every time I sell a book, but if I write a really good book and raise Interest around it online and sell it myself through, oh I don’t know, a print-on-demand publishing company like MagCloud or even hire my nerdy friend to write an iPad app where you can read it, well then I get 100% of the net proceeds,” minus whatever minimal thing Apple charges to me in the iPad store or MagCloud charges per page and then you basically are not sharing that with these labels because labels don’t have the power anymore, you do.
同样，作者也会意识到：“好吧，如果我去这家出版社，每卖出一本书，他们就会付给我10美分，但是如果我写一本非常好的书并引起人们的兴趣，在线上出售它，然后自己出售，哦，我不知道，这是一家像MagCloud这样的按需印刷出版公司，甚至雇用我的书呆子朋友编写一个iPad应用程序，您可以在其中阅读它，那么我得到了100％的净收益”，减去Apple在iPad商店向我收取的最低费用或每页MagCloud收取的费用，然后您基本上就不会与这些标签分享此信息，因为标签已不再具有这种功能。
Kevin: This is where I have to remind our audience of my own bias—obviously I work for a publisher, but this is the exact sort of stuff that these issues are what we’re wrestling—what is our role in this digital world where talented authors can take their products directly to an audience. We’re more and more beginning to think that our role is for helping people who have an important message, but don’t necessarily have the skills or abilities necessary to communicate them effectively and create books and products in partnerships with those authors where those authors wouldn’t be able to do it themselves.
凯文：这是我要提醒听众自己的偏见-显然我是为出版商工作的，但这正是我们要努力解决的这些问题-我们在这个数字世界中的角色是有才华的作者可以将其产品直接带给受众。 我们越来越开始认为我们的角色是帮助有重要信息的人，但不一定具有与他们有效地交流并与这些作者合作创建书籍和产品所需的技能或能力。自己将无法做到。
Derek: Absolutely. I’ll also add, I don’t think it has to be— I think the two models can coexist.
德里克：当然。 我还要补充一点，我认为不是必须的，我认为这两种模型可以共存。
It’s like the young illustrator who submits his stuff to Threadless and winds up getting a few t-shirts through the process and makes a little money through Threadless, but then all of a sudden has a freelance career and starts to get clients. I think these things can be stepping stones to each other.
就像年轻的插画师将自己的东西提交给Threadless并最终通过该过程获得了一些T恤衫并通过Threadless赚了点钱，但突然之间，他有了一个自由职业者的职业并开始获得客户。 我认为这些东西可以互相垫脚石。
So if I was a book publisher like in a publishing company, I’d be watching MagCloud and Lulu and the print-on-demand places to see who’s rising to the top in those places, because then you know you’re already dealing with someone with talent and they already have an audience that’s willing to pay for their stuff, so I think people can rise and fall out of these different environments.
因此，如果我像一家出版公司一样是图书发行商，那么我会看着MagCloud和Lulu以及按需印刷的地方，看看谁在这些地方升至顶峰，因为那样您就知道自己已经在与之打交道。一个有才华的人，他们已经有愿意为自己的东西付钱的观众，所以我认为人们可以在这些不同的环境中兴衰。
There are also always going to be projects that are going to make sense for different things. If I was going to write another web design book, I would go to a publishing house that has sales and distribution channels that are specific to that kind of content. If I’m going to write my personal stories about living in San Francisco, then I’m going to go to a print-on-demand service because I really don’t want to run those by an editor and I don’t want to have to submit them to all of the fiction publishing houses and have to talk about it. I’m just going to do it myself because that’s what those things are for.
总是会有一些对不同的事情有意义的项目。 如果要写另一本网页设计书，我会去一家出版社，该出版社具有针对此类内容的销售和分销渠道。 如果我要写有关在旧金山生活的个人故事，那我将去按需打印服务，因为我真的不想由编辑来管理，也不想必须将它们提交给所有小说出版社并进行讨论。 I'm just going to do it myself because that's what those things are for.
Kevin: It’s exciting, and it’s creating some mind-bending side effects to changes going on. I look at the Amazon/Macmillan kerfuffle that’s going on as we record this, where Amazon has pulled all of Macmillan’s books—both digital and print—out of its store because Macmillan wants to raise their prices. By all accounts, the reason they want to raise their prices is because of the Apple announcement, or at least it’s a contributing factor. It’s the first time I can remember where new competition is driving up prices.
Kevin: It's exciting, and it's creating some mind-bending side effects to changes going on. I look at the Amazon/Macmillan kerfuffle that's going on as we record this, where Amazon has pulled all of Macmillan's books—both digital and print—out of its store because Macmillan wants to raise their prices. By all accounts, the reason they want to raise their prices is because of the Apple announcement, or at least it's a contributing factor. It's the first time I can remember where new competition is driving up prices.
Derek: It’s because—if you don’t mind me saying so—these bastards at the publishing houses, they realize that their monopoly is running out and they are literally trying to suck every dollar out of their audience before they lose the ability to do so. The labels did the same thing, and I think it’s a disservice to readers, it’s a disservice to their authors, and it’s only going to hasten their demise.
Derek: It's because—if you don't mind me saying so—these bastards at the publishing houses, they realize that their monopoly is running out and they are literally trying to suck every dollar out of their audience before they lose the ability to do so. The labels did the same thing, and I think it's a disservice to readers, it's a disservice to their authors, and it's only going to hasten their demise.
I think Amazon really screwed up in the way that they handled the PR around this, but I don’t blame them for trying to fight about this because in the end what Amazon should have done is come out to their users and say, “Look guys, we’re trying to get you the lowest price for your books, which you love, and we’re trying to be fair to the authors, but the publishers are the ones who are going to make us raise our prices and so we’re going to fight with them a little bit about this and we’re sorry that you’re caught in the middle, etc., etc.” Instead, they said nothing and just did it and then afterwards, they posted some mealymouthed defense about how Macmillan has a monopoly on their titles. Well, of course, they have a monopoly— It’s like saying Amazon has a monopoly on Amazon.com … of course they do! That’s not the point. They did a really bad job of the PR and they burned a lot of authors, which is too bad because Amazon— That’s what I mean about Amazon playing both sides of that fence; they’re trying to be nice to authors and to keep the publishing arms happy.
I think Amazon really screwed up in the way that they handled the PR around this, but I don't blame them for trying to fight about this because in the end what Amazon should have done is come out to their users and say, “Look guys, we're trying to get you the lowest price for your books, which you love, and we're trying to be fair to the authors, but the publishers are the ones who are going to make us raise our prices and so we're going to fight with them a little bit about this and we're sorry that you're caught in the middle, etc., etc.” Instead, they said nothing and just did it and then afterwards, they posted some mealymouthed defense about how Macmillan has a monopoly on their titles. Well, of course, they have a monopoly— It's like saying Amazon has a monopoly on Amazon.com … of course they do! 那不是重点。 They did a really bad job of the PR and they burned a lot of authors, which is too bad because Amazon— That's what I mean about Amazon playing both sides of that fence; they're trying to be nice to authors and to keep the publishing arms happy.
What’s going to happen, which is unfortunate, is the iPad is going to come out. Some competitors are going to come out. They’re all going to go to the publishing houses. The publishing houses are going to be able to name their price, which they already have with the Kindle. Amazon is actually losing money when you spend $15 on a book, which is absurd.
What's going to happen, which is unfortunate, is the iPad is going to come out. Some competitors are going to come out. They're all going to go to the publishing houses. The publishing houses are going to be able to name their price, which they already have with the Kindle. Amazon is actually losing money when you spend $15 on a book, which is absurd.
If you spend $15 for a series of ones and zeros and Amazon loses money on that deal, that’s how absurd the pricing is from the publishing houses.
If you spend $15 for a series of ones and zeros and Amazon loses money on that deal, that's how absurd the pricing is from the publishing houses.
Kevin: And they’re no Apple. They’re not a company that’s making money off the hardware either.
Kevin: And they're no Apple. They're not a company that's making money off the hardware either.
Derek: That’s right. So all of these ebook readers are going to come out and the prices for books are going to be way too expensive and then the publishing houses are going to say, “See, no one will buy ebooks,” and it’s going to take someone like Apple—I don’t know if will be Apple, but someone like Apple—to say just the same way that Apple said to the music publishing houses, “Look you guys, 99 cents a song, trust us. It’s going to work.” The music companies had so little to lose at that point that they said, “Sure,” and it’s been wildly successful. Now, of course, they haven’t raised their prices because they haven’t learned anything.
德里克：是的。 So all of these ebook readers are going to come out and the prices for books are going to be way too expensive and then the publishing houses are going to say, “See, no one will buy ebooks,” and it's going to take someone like Apple—I don't know if will be Apple, but someone like Apple—to say just the same way that Apple said to the music publishing houses, “Look you guys, 99 cents a song, trust us. It's going to work.” The music companies had so little to lose at that point that they said, “Sure,” and it's been wildly successful. Now, of course, they haven't raised their prices because they haven't learned anything.
It really is going to take someone with clout to say, “Look guys, the latest pulp novel – it’s probably not worth $9.99 to our folks, $4.99 would be great.”
It really is going to take someone with clout to say, “Look guys, the latest pulp novel – it's probably not worth $9.99 to our folks, $4.99 would be great.”
Kevin: I think music is a great example because I went through the— I feel like I’m going through the music revolution again where I used to buy CDs and then digital came out and I wanted it because it was more convenient, it was a better product, but no one would sell it to me at a reasonable price or without DRM that limited my ability to listen to it the way I wanted to, so I just took five years off of buying music. It wasn’t an intentional decision, but every time I went to buy something, someone put a barrier in my way and I lost my taste for the purchase, and so five years went buy and I literally bought maybe one album in those five years.
Kevin: I think music is a great example because I went through the— I feel like I'm going through the music revolution again where I used to buy CDs and then digital came out and I wanted it because it was more convenient, it was a better product, but no one would sell it to me at a reasonable price or without DRM that limited my ability to listen to it the way I wanted to, so I just took five years off of buying music. It wasn't an intentional decision, but every time I went to buy something, someone put a barrier in my way and I lost my taste for the purchase, and so five years went buy and I literally bought maybe one album in those five years.
Then finally, Apple found the right combination to get DRM off of its store and a bunch of sort of little indie music stores have sprung up online and it finally came together so that now I’m buying music weekly again. The more I think about, the more I think maybe I need to like five years off buying books.
Then finally, Apple found the right combination to get DRM off of its store and a bunch of sort of little indie music stores have sprung up online and it finally came together so that now I'm buying music weekly again. The more I think about, the more I think maybe I need to like five years off buying books.
Derek: Well, it may be the only thing that makes them learn. They may have to just really fail at this for a while before they get it. I’m an optimist so I think that that actually could be really good in that new publishing houses could form that will be much smarter with the way they deal with authors and much smarter with the way they deal with technology and give the little guy a chance to throw some new stuff into the world because we can’t expect Macmillan to do this. They’re too old and they have too much invested in the previous system.
Derek: Well, it may be the only thing that makes them learn. They may have to just really fail at this for a while before they get it. I'm an optimist so I think that that actually could be really good in that new publishing houses could form that will be much smarter with the way they deal with authors and much smarter with the way they deal with technology and give the little guy a chance to throw some new stuff into the world because we can't expect Macmillan to do this. They're too old and they have too much invested in the previous system.
Kevin: Definitely, we’re trying to do our best at SitePoint and in general, the technical publishers seem to be leading the way here.
Kevin: Definitely, we're trying to do our best at SitePoint and in general, the technical publishers seem to be leading the way here.
Derek: The tech publishers are smart about this because they understand that certain things especially about tech books are better digitally. So search, obviously. Searching across multiple books or searching through books you already own is just something that computers do really well that books do really badly. Obviously, there’s always the travel example of being able to travel with a ton of material.
Derek: The tech publishers are smart about this because they understand that certain things especially about tech books are better digitally. So search, obviously. Searching across multiple books or searching through books you already own is just something that computers do really well that books do really badly. Obviously, there's always the travel example of being able to travel with a ton of material.
This is the incredibly important thing that’s happening right now that the book publishers and traditional publishers are completely missing as they scream about the death of print, is that there is more literacy now and there’s more reading that goes on every day now than there has been ever in the history of humanity.
This is the incredibly important thing that's happening right now that the book publishers and traditional publishers are completely missing as they scream about the death of print, is that there is more literacy now and there's more reading that goes on every day now than there has been ever in the history of humanity.
There are more people writing and reading words on the Internet, and it’s because of the Internet that we’re raising a new generation of readers and writers. So that should be really, really good for people who sell words, but instead, they’re so focused on the technology of print and all the technology stuff we’re talking about, they’re missing the fact that there’s a renaissance in reading and writing happening now and all it will take is the right product at the right price to really capture that, I think.
There are more people writing and reading words on the Internet, and it's because of the Internet that we're raising a new generation of readers and writers. So that should be really, really good for people who sell words, but instead, they're so focused on the technology of print and all the technology stuff we're talking about, they're missing the fact that there's a renaissance in reading and writing happening now and all it will take is the right product at the right price to really capture that, I think.
Kevin: You spoke about how with Fray you’ve pretty much, for the time being, given up on getting people to pay for digital content and that rather you find you can make more money by selling the same content that’s available free online in a prestige-packed print format.
Kevin: You spoke about how with Fray you've pretty much, for the time being, given up on getting people to pay for digital content and that rather you find you can make more money by selling the same content that's available free online in a prestige-packed print format.
Do you think following that model represents a concession that we’re never going to find that way to get people to buy digital? Do you think it’s getting people used to the fact that digital content is free and might keep us from finding the way to get people to pay for it?
Do you think following that model represents a concession that we're never going to find that way to get people to buy digital? Do you think it's getting people used to the fact that digital content is free and might keep us from finding the way to get people to pay for it?
Derek: Well that’s certainly what’s the newspaper mafias are saying. The big few newspapers that are left are saying that the problem here is like a psychology a problem, like we’ve trained people that they can get it for free and therefore we are ruining our own business.
Derek: Well that's certainly what's the newspaper mafias are saying. The big few newspapers that are left are saying that the problem here is like a psychology a problem, like we've trained people that they can get it for free and therefore we are ruining our own business.
Kevin: We’ve heard the same thing from the death throes of the music DRM cartel saying we have a whole generation of kids who have grown up thinking of music as something you download for free online. We’re screwed because this whole generation will never pay for music.
Kevin: We've heard the same thing from the death throes of the music DRM cartel saying we have a whole generation of kids who have grown up thinking of music as something you download for free online. We're screwed because this whole generation will never pay for music.
Derek: And yet then comes the Apple store and they’re selling how many billion songs? So obviously money is changing hands. I guess you could also say that there’s more legal purchasing of music, digital music, now than there ever has been. So there was a solution there, you just have to find the right combination of things.
Derek: And yet then comes the Apple store and they're selling how many billion songs? So obviously money is changing hands. I guess you could also say that there's more legal purchasing of music, digital music, now than there ever has been. So there was a solution there, you just have to find the right combination of things.
I think if your business models depends on simply making everyone decide to spend money when they don’t want to, that’s a very difficult business model. If it’s everybody else’s problem for not buying your thing, then maybe your thing isn’t worth buying. I really don’t think people are so simple that it’s really just a matter of flipping a bit in everyone’s expectations. I think it’s a perfectly rationale decision to not want to spend money for digital things that have no permanence, that are difficult to consume in the format they’re in, when there are free alternatives.
I think if your business models depends on simply making everyone decide to spend money when they don't want to, that's a very difficult business model. If it's everybody else's problem for not buying your thing, then maybe your thing isn't worth buying. I really don't think people are so simple that it's really just a matter of flipping a bit in everyone's expectations. I think it's a perfectly rationale decision to not want to spend money for digital things that have no permanence, that are difficult to consume in the format they're in, when there are free alternatives.
I don’t think that the solution is to take away the free alternatives because that’s impossible. I think the solution is to make the experience of consuming digital better and I think the Web is not that. The Web is good at a lot of things, but I think the fundamental experience of consuming content on it is not going to drastically improve. I think it takes new hardware, and that’s why I’m excited to see the new hardware happening.
I don't think that the solution is to take away the free alternatives because that's impossible. I think the solution is to make the experience of consuming digital better and I think the Web is not that. The Web is good at a lot of things, but I think the fundamental experience of consuming content on it is not going to drastically improve. I think it takes new hardware, and that's why I'm excited to see the new hardware happening.
As a publisher, I don’t feel that I’m conceding by embracing this wonderful medium that everybody can access where a story on Fray can be read in Australia and America and Antarctica as easily as anywhere else. I think that’s an enormous gift I’ve been given by the universe. So blaming that method of distribution is a fallacy. It’s not the method of distribution’s fault. It’s actually a great gift that allows you to publicize what you are doing, to find contributors, to grow community that the print world always lacked.
As a publisher, I don't feel that I'm conceding by embracing this wonderful medium that everybody can access where a story on Fray can be read in Australia and America and Antarctica as easily as anywhere else. I think that's an enormous gift I've been given by the universe. So blaming that method of distribution is a fallacy. It's not the method of distribution's fault. It's actually a great gift that allows you to publicize what you are doing, to find contributors, to grow community that the print world always lacked.
I think instead of seeing it as a concession, what it actually is is a tradeoff. I am willing to trade access to this content in return for all the things I get back from it, which in Fray’s case is growing community, meeting new authors, getting great submissions, contributing to the good of the Web—all of this great community stuff that happens when you put content out there and let people talk to each other. That’s a gift.
I think instead of seeing it as a concession, what it actually is is a tradeoff. I am willing to trade access to this content in return for all the things I get back from it, which in Fray's case is growing community, meeting new authors, getting great submissions, contributing to the good of the Web—all of this great community stuff that happens when you put content out there and let people talk to each other. That's a gift.
Kevin: So if all your dreams come true and we find a way to create the hardware and the software necessary for digital to become an experience the people will pay for, what is your vision for Fray and MagCloud in that world? Are these things attempts to create businesses in the unstable and temporary present or do these things have paths into that future as you see them?
Kevin: So if all your dreams come true and we find a way to create the hardware and the software necessary for digital to become an experience the people will pay for, what is your vision for Fray and MagCloud in that world? Are these things attempts to create businesses in the unstable and temporary present or do these things have paths into that future as you see them?
Derek: Well I think for Fray is at its core a labor of love for me and something that brings me immense joy. So the only business connected to it is that it helps me stay current on what it’s like to be a publisher and it helps me self-educate about lots of things. I learned all about UPC bar coding in the United States and how … the mafias that control that. There’s so many little strange bits about publishing that are phenomenally old school. But in the end, it’s a labor of love, it’s not a business model. Labors of love are for joy, not for money. If it vaguely supports itself financially, then I’m happy.
Derek: Well I think for Fray is at its core a labor of love for me and something that brings me immense joy. So the only business connected to it is that it helps me stay current on what it's like to be a publisher and it helps me self-educate about lots of things. I learned all about UPC bar coding in the United States and how … the mafias that control that. There's so many little strange bits about publishing that are phenomenally old school. But in the end, it's a labor of love, it's not a business model. Labors of love are for joy, not for money. If it vaguely supports itself financially, then I'm happy.
MagCloud obviously is a business. It’s by HP. It has employees and consultants like me and so it is a business and as a business, it’s capitalizing on two trends. One is if you look at the cost per page of digital printing—so that’s printing on the HP Indigo machines that MagCloud magazines come off of—that is getting cheaper every year, whereas the cost of traditional printing is increasing per year because fewer and fewer people are doing it, actually, so the economies of scale are going away. It’s a laborious, very old fashioned kind of printing. If you’ve ever seen one of the old web presses running, it’s phenomenal, but it’s really old school. Literally, they are etching copper plates and applying ink to paper physically. It’s phenomenal to watch it.
MagCloud obviously is a business. It's by HP. It has employees and consultants like me and so it is a business and as a business, it's capitalizing on two trends. One is if you look at the cost per page of digital printing—so that's printing on the HP Indigo machines that MagCloud magazines come off of—that is getting cheaper every year, whereas the cost of traditional printing is increasing per year because fewer and fewer people are doing it, actually, so the economies of scale are going away. It's a laborious, very old fashioned kind of printing. If you've ever seen one of the old web presses running, it's phenomenal, but it's really old school. Literally, they are etching copper plates and applying ink to paper physically. It's phenomenal to watch it.
As the price per page for traditional printing gets more expensive and the digital printing gets cheaper, there’s going to be a certain point rather soon where it is just as cost effective to do it digitally as it is to do it traditionally. At that point, MagCloud is the perfect print option for the big guys and the little guys alike. And what I see is, as the great opportunity for all of these web-based communities that have all the necessary pieces of what a magazine is. A magazine is a community that cares about a topic and content that is interesting to that community—that’s all a magazine is.
As the price per page for traditional printing gets more expensive and the digital printing gets cheaper, there's going to be a certain point rather soon where it is just as cost effective to do it digitally as it is to do it traditionally. At that point, MagCloud is the perfect print option for the big guys and the little guys alike. And what I see is, as the great opportunity for all of these web-based communities that have all the necessary pieces of what a magazine is. A magazine is a community that cares about a topic and content that is interesting to that community—that's all a magazine is.
If these communities that have never published anything have this opportunity to create beautiful print outputs for their communities—that’s what a magazine is. If they can do it easily, all of a sudden, they have a business model. They can print paper and sell it and I think we’re going to see a lot of niche magazines come out of that, as the kind of existing print publications continue to struggle.
If these communities that have never published anything have this opportunity to create beautiful print outputs for their communities—that's what a magazine is. If they can do it easily, all of a sudden, they have a business model. They can print paper and sell it and I think we're going to see a lot of niche magazines come out of that, as the kind of existing print publications continue to struggle.
Kevin: Derek, thanks for taking the time today.
Kevin: Derek, thanks for taking the time today.
Derek: It’s my pleasure. I think about this stuff way too much.
Derek: It's my pleasure. I think about this stuff way too much.
Kevin: It’s great to get to spend some time with someone who geeks out about the stuff as much as I do, if not moreso.
Kevin: It's great to get to spend some time with someone who geeks out about the stuff as much as I do, if not moreso.
Derek: It was all my pleasure.
Derek: It was all my pleasure.
Kevin: And thanks for listening to the SitePoint Podcast. If you have any thoughts or questions about today’s interview, please do get in touch. You can find SitePoint on Twitter @sitepointdotcom, and you can find me on Twitter @sentience.
凯文：感谢您收听SitePoint播客。 如果您对今天的采访有任何想法或疑问，请保持联系。 你可以在Twitter上找到SitePoint @sitepointdotcom ，你可以找到我的Twitter @sentience 。
Visit sitepoint.com/podcast to leave a comment on this show and to subscribe to get every show automatically. We’ll be back next week with another news and commentary show with our usual panel of experts.
访问sitepoint.com/podcast对该节目发表评论并订阅以自动获得每一个节目。 下周我们将与我们通常的专家小组一起再次发布新闻和评论节目。
This episode of the SitePoint Podcast was produced by Karn Broad, and I’m Kevin Yank. Bye for now!
This episode of the SitePoint Podcast was produced by Karn Broad , and I'm Kevin Yank. 暂时再见！
Theme music by Mike Mella.
Mike Mella的主题音乐。
Thanks for listening! Feel free to let us know how we’re doing, or to continue the discussion, using the comments field below.
谢谢收听！ 欢迎使用下面的评论字段让我们知道我们的状况，或者继续讨论。
翻译自: https://www.sitepoint.com/podcast-48-publishing-futures-derek-powazek/
