In this episode of the Versioning Show, Tim and David are joined by Alex Fitzpatrick, Deputy Tech Editor for Time Magazine. They discuss the viability of the web as a mass publishing tool, the challenges of monetizing content in the age of the ad blocker, and the battle between walled gardens, silos, paywalls and the open web.
在Versioning Show的这一集中，Tim和David与Time Magazine的副技术编辑Alex Fitzpatrick一同加入了会议。 他们讨论了网络作为大众发布工具的可行性，在广告拦截器时代通过内容获利的挑战以及围墙花园，筒仓，收费墙和开放网络之间的斗争。
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Alex Fitzpatrick on Twitter: @alexjamesfitz
亚历克斯·菲茨帕特里克在Twitter上： @alexjamesfitz
Time.com
Time.com
Mashable
可混搭
J-School
J学校
Instant Articles
即时文章
AMP
安培
timeinc.com/careers
timeinc.com/careers
Medium
中
The Awl
锥子
Ghostery
幽灵
Evernote’s Clearly extension (mentioned in the show) has been discontinued, but partly lives on in the Web Clipper extension
Evernote的 Clearly扩展(在演示中提到)已经停产，但部分存在于Web Clipper扩展中
Say hello on Twitter: @mdavidgreen | @tevko | @versioningshow | @sitepointdotcom
在Twitter上问好： @mdavidgreen | @tevko | @versioningshow | @sitepointdotcom
I think, given the trend right now, it does look like we’re headed back towards that walled garden world, where the platforms rule the day. … if I’m just in Facebook all day, at least the experience is the same. I know what I’m getting. I know how to use it. It’s more inviting for people who aren’t as savvy.
我认为，鉴于目前的趋势，看来我们正朝着围墙围墙的花园世界前进，平台统治了这一天。 …如果我整天都在Facebook上，至少体验是一样的。 我知道我会得到什么。 我知道怎么用。 对于那些不那么精明的人来说，这更具吸引力。
That’s sad, I think, when you look at the overall ecosystem, I think it’s probably better off to have a parity between the platforms and the open web. I don’t think the open web should go away, or that it will at all, but I definitely think you’re seeing the platforms being the more dominant spot. I think people just flock to that sort of calm cove in a ocean of torment, right?
我认为这很可悲，当您查看整个生态系统时，我认为最好在平台和开放网络之间建立平衡。 我不认为开放的网络应该消失，也不会消失，但是我绝对认为您看到的平台是最主要的位置。 我认为人们正涌向那片在煎熬的海洋中平静的海湾，对吧？
I just basically grew up in a very tech-oriented household. My grandfather was a programmer and engineer. My dad is a programmer, and there was a thought that I would go to school for programming as well. But my hesitation — my very naïve hesitation at the time — was Oh, yeah programming’s great. I love logic and all that, but I don’t want to sit in front of a computer all day. So, naturally, I became an internet journalist, and I sit in front of a computer all day — and probably make less money than I would as a programmer, so it bit me in the end.
我基本上只是在一个非常注重技术的家庭中长大的。 我的祖父是一名程序员和工程师。 我父亲是一名程序员，并且有一种想法，我也将上学编程。 但是我的犹豫-当时我非常幼稚的犹豫-是的，编程很棒。 我喜欢逻辑以及所有这些，但是我不想整天坐在电脑前。 因此，自然而然地，我成为了一名互联网记者，并且整天坐在电脑前–赚的钱可能比当程序员的时候要少，所以这最终使我受了伤。
the web, obviously, up-ended the advertiser-based business model that journalism relied upon for the most part, and what we’re seeing, and still seeing the effects of, is publishers like Time Inc. struggling to figure out, “How do we actually make money by doing this?” Banner ads can’t support that alone. That’s why you’re seeing publishers explore native advertising and branded content and all sorts of other ways to try to actually make money and make a business of it.
在网络上，很明显，它颠覆了新闻业在很大程度上依赖的基于广告商的商业模式，而我们正在看到并仍在看到其影响的是像Time Inc.这样的发行商在努力找出“我们这样做真的赚钱吗？” 标语广告不能单独支持。 这就是为什么您会看到发布商探索本地广告和品牌内容以及其他各种方式来尝试实际赚钱并利用其开展业务的原因。
There’s also, correspondingly, a renewed interesting in distribution mechanisms that we control as publishers — newsletters being a really good example of that. I think the newsletter is really the last thing that we as publishers control that’s a distribution mechanism. It’s almost equivalent to the paper boy. … It’s a matter of balancing out the dominance of Google and Facebook and having something that we still control.
相应地，我们作为发行商控制的发行机制也重新引起了人们的兴趣-新闻通讯就是一个很好的例子。 我认为，新闻通讯确实是我们作为发行商控制的最后一件事，这是一种发行机制。 这几乎等于纸男孩。 ……这是要平衡Google和Facebook的主导地位，并拥有我们仍在控制的东西。
I also think that one of the bright spots of the industry to me personally is this experimentation with sites that rely on the subscriber model — that tight subscription model — meaning you can’t access anything without subscribing, and they’re sort of niche interest sites.
我还认为，对我个人而言，该行业的一大亮点是对依赖订户模型(即严格的订户模型)的网站进行的试验，这意味着您无法不订阅就无法访问任何内容，而且它们是一种利基市场。网站。
It’s already been a tumultuous year for online media, and I think you’ll see some sites that are not high quality sites suffer in this new age, as the belt tightens, and the winners and losers are divvied out in terms of who’s getting traffic from Facebook and that kind of stuff.
对于在线媒体来说，这已经是动荡的一年，我想您会发现，在这个新时代，一些质量不高的网站遭受了损失，随着安全带的紧缩，赢家和输家被分到谁得到了流量上来自Facebook之类的东西。
I think part of the reason I’m here is just straight-up luck — right place, right time — which I think is either thankfully or sadly how a lot of life works. It’s also a matter of just really putting in the work and networking and getting to know people and that sort of thing.
我认为我在这里的部分原因仅仅是运气好–正确的地方，正确的时间–我认为这是值得庆幸的还是可悲的是很多生活如何运作。 这也只是真正投入工作和建立网络并结识人们和诸如此类的事情。
Hey. What’s up? This is M. David Green.
嘿。 这是怎么回事？ 我是大卫·格林(M. David Green)。
Tim: 蒂姆：And this is Tim Evko.
这是蒂姆·埃夫科。
David: 大卫：And you’re listening to episode ten of the Versioning Podcast.
您正在收听Versioning Podcast的第10集。
Tim: 蒂姆：This is a place where we get together to discuss the industry of the web, from development to design, with some of the people making it happen today and planning where it’s headed in the next version.
在这里，我们可以聚在一起讨论从开发到设计的网络行业，其中一些人将其付诸实践，并计划下一版的发展方向。
David: 大卫：Today we’re talking to Alex Fitzpatrick, who is the Deputy Tech Editor for Time Magazine.
今天，我们正在与《时代》杂志的副技术编辑Alex Fitzpatrick交谈。
Alex, how are you doing today?
亚历克斯，你今天好吗？
Alex: 亚历克斯：Good, good, good, how are you?
好，好，好，你好吗？
David: 大卫：Good. Did I get your title right there?
好。 我在那里得到你的头衔了吗？
Alex: 亚历克斯：You did, yeah.
是的，是的。
David: 大卫：Fantastic. Can you tell me a little bit of what that means — to be a deputy tech editor?
太棒了 您能告诉我一些什么意思-成为副技术编辑吗？
Alex: 亚历克斯：Sure, yeah. My primary responsibility is overseeing the technology and a bit of the business coverage on Time.com, our website. I dabble a little bit in print here and there as well, but mostly I work on the online side.
当然可以 我的主要职责是在网站Time.com上监督技术和部分业务范围。 我在这里和那里也有点涉猎，但是大部分时间我都是在线工作。
We’ve got a team of three or four writers, freelancers and whatnot, and I spend most of my time assigning them, editing them, and doing some writing myself.
我们有一个由三到四个作家，自由职业者和诸如此类的人组成的团队，而我大部分时间都花在分配，编辑和做一些自己的写作上。
David: 大卫：Fantastic. Cool.
太棒了 凉。
Tim: 蒂姆：Alex, for our guests, we usually have a philosophical question that we like to ask at the top of the show. It’s sort of related to software versions because, as you know, software when it gets released comes out with a specific version for every release. So, on the heels of that, our question is, in your current career, what version are you, and why?
亚历克斯(Alex)，对于我们的客人来说，我们通常会在展览的开头提出一个哲学问题。 这与软件版本有关，因为您知道，软件发布时会针对每个发行版提供特定的版本。 因此，紧接着，我们的问题是，在您目前的职业中，您是哪个版本，为什么？
Alex: 亚历克斯：I think I’m stuck in permanent Beta, I would say. I don’t know if the full release will ever be out there.
我想我会陷入永久Beta版。 我不知道是否会发布完整版本。
Tim: 蒂姆：Actually that begs the question, how did you get into this tech editor role? What brought you there?
其实是在问一个问题，您是如何成为这个技术编辑的角色的？ 是什么把你带到那里的？
Alex: 亚历克斯：Yeah, it’s been a twisty path. I studies International Relations in college. I guess we can start there. So, obviously didn’t major in it, don’t have a journalism degree per se, but when I graduated, which was in 2011, I had a short stint in politics. I thought I wanted to do political communication. That wound up being not for me, and I sort of spent a few months wondering aimlessly. Then got a job as a social media editor at Mashable, a technology news site in late 2011.
是的，这是一条曲折的道路。 我在大学学习国际关系。 我想我们可以从这里开始。 因此，显然没有主修该科目 ， 本身没有新闻学学位，但是当我2011年毕业时，我在政治领域工作了一段时间。 我以为我想进行政治交流。 最后，这不适合我，我花了几个月的时间漫无目的地地想着。 然后在2011年下半年在科技新闻网站Mashable担任社交媒体编辑的工作。
Then that internship turned into a job covering the 2012 presidential campaign in terms of the tech and digital and social stuff that the campaigns were doing. Then a couple years later, I got hired to come on to Time.com as a Homepage Editor, which turned into a Breaking News Editor role covering stuff across verticals. Then about a year and half ago, our existing Tech Editor was leaving, and so that opportunity arose. I have a casual background in tech, so I raised my hand and said, You know, I can probably do that. That’s how I got there.
然后，这种实习变成了一项工作，涉及竞选活动所从事的技术，数字和社会事务，涵盖了2012年总统竞选活动。 几年后，我受聘加入Time.com担任主页编辑器，该职位变成了突发新闻编辑器角色，负责跨行业的工作。 大约一年半以前，我们现有的技术编辑器要离开了，于是出现了机会。 我的技术背景很随意，所以我举起手说：“ 我可以做到。 那就是我到达那里的方式。
Tim: 蒂姆：Cool. How does that casual background in tech reflect? What is your casual background in tech?
凉。 科技领域的休闲背景如何体现？ 您在技术领域的休闲背景是什么？
Alex: 亚历克斯：Oh sure, I just basically grew up in a very tech-oriented household. My grandfather was a programmer and engineer. My dad is a programmer, and there was a thought that I would go to school for programming as well. But my hesitation — my very naïve hesitation at the time — was Oh, yeah programming’s great. I love logic and all that, but I don’t want to sit in front of a computer all day. So, naturally, I became an internet journalist, and I sit in front of a computer all day — and probably make less money than I would as a programmer, so it bit me in the end.
哦，可以肯定，我基本上只是在一个非常注重技术的家庭中长大的。 我的祖父是一名程序员和工程师。 我父亲是一名程序员，并且有一种想法，我也将上学编程。 但是我的犹豫-当时我非常幼稚的犹豫-是的，编程很棒。 我喜欢逻辑以及所有这些，但是我不想整天坐在电脑前。 因此，自然而然地，我成为了一名互联网记者，并且整天坐在电脑前–赚的钱可能比当程序员的时候要少，所以这最终使我受了伤。
Tim: 蒂姆：I think that one of interesting things about your career path is it’s actually fairly typical of a lot of people who we interview here. You’re on the journalism side of it. A lot of the people we interview are designers and technologists, but a lot of us get here without actually having a degree in what we go out into the world and do, even though we’re professionals in these areas. I’m curious if you feel like that’s gotten in your way, or if you think it’s helped you?
我认为关于您的职业道路有趣的一件事是，这实际上是我们在这里采访的许多人的典型代表。 您在新闻方面。 我们采访的很多人都是设计师和技术人员，但是即使我们是这些领域的专业人士，我们中的很多人实际上都没有学位去研究世界和做的事情。 我很好奇您是否觉得这已成为您的阻碍，或者您认为它对您有所帮助？
Alex: 亚历克斯：No, I think it’s helpful. I think in the journalism world there’s a definite split amongst people who think that journalism school or a J-School degree is totally necessary. I’m in the camp that I don’t think it is. I think some of the best journalists I’ve worked with are people who don’t have that formal training, and learn it on the job and are experts in whatever they’re covering. I think that can be pretty beneficial, but at the same time, going to J-School can teach you a lot of necessary skills, give you a boost in terms of networking. You can meet a lot of people there, can get a lot of internships through there. Then it’s a lot easier to learn harder skills, like video editing and whatnot through journalism school, rather than learning that stuff on the job or teaching it to yourself.
不，我认为这很有帮助。 我认为在新闻界，认为新闻学校或J-School学位是完全必要的人之间存在一定的分歧。 我在营地里，我认为不是。 我认为与我合作过的一些最好的记者是没有经过正式培训，在工作中学到的东西的人，并且是他们报道的专家。 我认为这可能会非常有益，但同时，去J-School可以教给您很多必要的技能，从而使您在网络方面得到提升。 您可以在那里见到很多人，可以在那里获得很多实习机会。 然后，通过新闻学院学习更难的技能(例如视频编辑等)变得容易得多，而不是学习工作中的这些东西或自己教它。
Tim [4:08]: 蒂姆[4:08] ：Speaking of learning on the job, and your technology background, how do you see the web so far succeeding as a mass publishing tool in the journalism industry?
说到在职学习和您的技术背景，您如何看待迄今为止的网络在新闻业中作为大众发布工具的成功？
Alex: 亚历克斯：I think it’s a mixed bag. I know that’s not a great answer, but I think what you see is, on one hand we now have this incredibly powerful publishing tool. By “we” I mean not just mass media, but all writers of all stripes have this tool that connects them with millions, if not billions, of people instantly. Obviously, finding an audience and finding reach is still a struggle and still something that you have to work at, but any one piece of writing that you do can get a lot of eyeballs without a whole lot of work if things work out the right way.
我认为这是一个混蛋。 我知道这不是一个很好的答案，但是我认为您看到的是，一方面，我们现在拥有了这种功能强大的发布工具。 “我们”不仅是指大众传媒，而且各个领域的所有作家都拥有这种工具，可以将它们与数百万甚至数十亿的人立即联系起来。 显然，寻找受众并找到影响力仍然是一个艰苦的工作，仍然是您必须要做的事情，但是如果事情以正确的方式进行，那么您所做的任何一件写作都可能会引起很多人的关注而无需大量工作。
At the same time, the web, obviously, up-ended the advertiser-based business model that journalism relied upon for the most part, and what we’re seeing, and still seeing the effects of, is publishers like Time Inc. struggling to figure out, “How do we actually make money by doing this?” Banner ads can’t support that alone. That’s why you’re seeing publishers explore native advertising and branded content and all sorts of other ways to try to actually make money and make a business of it.
同时，很明显，网络颠覆了新闻业在很大程度上依赖的基于广告商的商业模式，而我们正在看到并仍在看到其影响的是像Time Inc.这样的发行商。弄清楚，“我们如何真正通过这样做来赚钱？” 标语广告不能单独支持。 这就是为什么您会看到发布商探索本地广告和品牌内容以及其他各种方式来尝试实际赚钱并利用其开展业务的原因。
Tim: 蒂姆：I know that that’s evolved rather quickly, probably even in the time since you’ve started as the Deputy Tech Editor. I’m curious what you’ve seen change.
我知道这种情况发展得非常快，甚至自从您担任副技术编辑一职以来就已经如此。 我很好奇您看到的变化。
Alex: 亚历克斯：I think there’s been, over the past year or two, there’s been definitely a bigger movement towards native publishing, or native advertising. By that, for those who don’t know, is when a company — a publishing company — does a piece of content and it’s aligned towards a brand that’s putting its advertising all over it. For instance, Microsoft might sponsor a series of pieces about cloud computing, because they want people to know about their cloud computing platform. That’s got a synergy for them.
我认为在过去一两年中，肯定会出现更大的向本地发布或本地广告的趋势。 到那时，对于那些不知道的人来说，是一家公司(一家出版公司)何时进行某项内容，并将其与一个在其上投放广告的品牌保持一致。 例如，微软可能赞助一系列有关云计算的文章，因为他们希望人们了解他们的云计算平台。 这对他们有协同作用。
Another good example is the Wall Street Journal did a cool series about narcotics trafficking. It was all legit journalism and legit story telling, but it was all branded with advertising for Netflix’s Narcos, which is about the drug wars and whatnot. Again, it’s just that synergy in terms of content and advertiser.
另一个很好的例子是《华尔街日报》(Wall Street Journal)做了一系列有关毒品贩运的很酷的系列。 这全都是合法的新闻报道和合法的故事讲述，但全都是在Netflix的Narcos广告上打上烙印，这是关于毒品战争之类的东西。 同样，这只是内容和广告客户之间的协同作用。
Tim: 蒂姆：Do you ever feel that your visitors might think content is a little bit less authentic when it is attached to a large sponsorship like that?
您是否曾经觉得您的访问者可能会认为，将内容附加到像这样的大型赞助商时，内容的真实性会降低一些？
Alex: 亚历克斯：I think that’s a worry. I think that’s a concern amongst native advertisers of all stripes. I think it’s about really keeping that in mind when you’re doing it and making stuff. Like that Narcos series I hold in high regard, because it was such a — if you took the Netflix ads aways from it, it would just be a story that the Journal ran about narcotics trafficking. There’s no, at least from my perspective, I don’t what the internal process there was, but it reads like a normal story. I think your audience connects with that when they realize Oh, this isn’t somebody trying to shove narcotics coverage down my throat, because Netflix has this new show, but it’s actually good coverage of this important issue.
我认为这很担心。 我认为这是各行各业的本地广告商所关心的。 我认为这是在做和制作东西时真正记住这一点。 就像我高度重视的Narcos系列一样，因为它是如此-如果您不理会Netflix广告，那么《华尔街日报》就讲述了有关毒品贩运的故事。 至少从我的角度来看，没有任何内部流程，但听起来像是一个正常的故事。 我认为您的听众会意识到，当他们意识到哦时，这并不是有人试图将麻醉品的报道推倒我的喉咙，因为Netflix推出了这部新节目，但实际上是对这一重要问题的很好的报道。
Tim: 蒂姆：It also helps that Narcos was such a good show too, I think.
我认为，这也有助于Narcos表现出色。
Alex: 亚历克斯：Yeah, yeah, of course.
是的，当然。
Tim: 蒂姆：That’s interesting, because that also draws in an audience that might not otherwise be looking to read these kinds of stories. They are attracted by their interest in the show, and yet they get the actually coverage from the magazine.
这很有趣，因为这也吸引了原本不希望阅读此类故事的听众。 他们对节目的兴趣吸引了他们，但实际上他们从杂志上获得了报道。
Alex: 亚历克斯：Yeah, exactly. I think it’s a matter of — it’s almost as if Netflix was treating Narcos the show as its own unique brand within the Netflix umbrella, and doing stuff to expand that brand, expand its reach. If you think about it, Netflix in terms of Netflix the publisher, is very much a publisher strategy.
是的，完全正确。 我认为这是一个问题-好像Netflix在Netflix的保护伞下将Narcos节目视为自己的独特品牌一样，并且正在做一些事情来扩大该品牌，扩大其影响范围。 如果您考虑一下，就Netflix而言，Netflix是一种发布者策略。
Tim: 蒂姆：That’s interesting. I’m not used to thinking about Netflix as the publisher.
那很有意思。 我不习惯将Netflix视为发行商。
Alex: 亚历克斯：Neither am I. I just thought of that, and feel pretty good about it.
我也不是。我只是想到了这一点，对此感觉很好。
David: 大卫：Definitely a tweet waiting to happen. This might be a difficult question for you to answer, but I’m going to just throw it out there anyways. If you could add something like a feature to the web or mobile web that would help your industry, what would it be?
绝对是一条等待发布的推文。 对于您来说，这可能是一个很难回答的问题，但是无论如何，我还是要把它扔出去。 如果您可以在网络或移动网络中添加诸如功能之类的东西来对您的行业有所帮助，那会是什么？
Alex: 亚历克斯：A way to make money, I think would be good.
我认为一种赚钱的方式会很好。
David: 大卫：[Laughing] I like that.
[笑]我喜欢。
Alex [7:56]: 亚历克斯[7:56] ：I think that’s a good place to start. I think what Facebook and Google are doing with Instant Articles and AMP respectively — is really, really helpful in terms of speed. I think a lot of publishers struggle with speed, just because there’s so many cookies and so much other stuff that’s loading, especially on mobile. When you’re on a not so great wireless signal, pages take forever to load, and what we’ve seen is there’s a clear connection between speed and greater attention. Meaning if somebody’s loaded up an article and it doesn’t load quickly, people are bound to leave, and then they’re not seeing that article. So to have the help of both Facebook and Google in terms of getting stuff that loads faster is a big help.
我认为这是一个不错的起点。 我认为Facebook和Google分别对Instant Articles和AMP所做的工作–在速度方面确实非常有用。 我认为许多发布商都在为速度而苦苦挣扎，只是因为有太多的Cookie和许多其他东西正在加载，尤其是在移动设备上。 当您的无线信号不太好时，页面将被永久加载，而我们所看到的是速度和更多注意力之间有着明显的联系。 这意味着，如果有人加载了一篇文章，但又没有Swift加载，人们必然会离开，然后他们就看不到该文章。 因此，在更快地加载内容方面获得Facebook和Google的帮助是一个很大的帮助。
Now that said, I think there’s still a lot of work to be done in terms of monetizing those two platforms and whatnot. But I think you’re seeing both of them realize, “Okay, yeah, we need to figure how we can help publishers make money by doing these things and working with us. So, there’s a good conversation being had there.
话虽如此，我认为关于这两个平台的货币化还有很多工作要做。 但是我想您会看到他们两个都意识到：“是的，是的，我们需要弄清楚如何通过做这些事情并与我们合作来帮助出版商赚钱。 因此，在那里进行了良好的交谈。
David: 大卫：From a publisher’s perspective, how would you explain what Instant Pages and AMP are really doing for you? I’m not sure if all of our listeners are going to be familiar with them.
从发布者的角度来看，您将如何解释Instant Pages和AMP真正为您做什么？ 我不确定我们所有的听众是否都会熟悉它们。
Alex: 亚历克斯：Yeah, yeah, totally. Basically, they both work a little bit differently, but essentially the idea is for Facebook’s Instant Articles — that’s going through your Facebook feed — you might see a news article that has a little lightening bolt in the corner. That signifies it’s an Instant Article. When you click that, it’s basically already pre-cached in the Facebook servers. I don’t understand entirely the technical side of it, but when you click it, it loads ultra-fast, instantly. It’s not just the speed, but it also feels like a native experience of that platform, rather than when you click an article on Facebook on mobile and it loads in this crappy, third-party browser. That just feels sort of janky and bad as a user experience.
是的，完全是。 基本上，它们的工作方式有所不同，但是从本质上来说，该想法是针对Facebook的Instant Articles(正在遍历您的Facebook feed)的，您可能会看到一条新闻文章的角落稍有减轻。 这表示它是即时文章。 当您单击它时，它基本上已经预先存储在Facebook服务器中。 我不完全了解它的技术方面，但是当您单击它时，它会立即快速加载。 这不仅是速度，而且还感觉像是该平台的本机体验，而不是当您在移动设备上单击Facebook上的文章并将其加载到该糟糕的第三方浏览器中时。 作为一种用户体验，这感觉有点过时和不好。
Google’s AMP works the same way. If you’re in mobile, searching Google, and you come across a news article and it say’s AMP (or whatever it is — I think there’s a little icon for them as well) — you click it, same thing, loads instantly, comes with all the photos and just is a really good user experience.
Google的AMP的工作方式与此相同。 如果您在移动设备中搜索Google，并且遇到了一篇新闻文章，上面写着AMP(或其他含义，我想他们也有一个小图标)，则单击它，同样的事情，会立即加载，所有照片，这确实是一个很好的用户体验。
David: 大卫：Interesting. I’m coming from an old web development background myself, and I remember back in the day that a lot of the internet service providers — like, back in the day, America Online — used to cache articles in their servers. Then the problem was, while they were served very fast, the sites that were serving those articles couldn’t get good statistics about who was watching them, who was reading them, and how much usage they were getting. I’m curious if that’s an issue?
有趣。 我本人来自旧的Web开发背景，回想起当时的许多Internet服务提供商(例如，当日，America Online)曾经在其服务器中缓存文章。 然后的问题是，尽管它们的投放速度非常快，但提供这些文章的网站却无法获得有关谁在观看它们，谁正在阅读它们以及获得了多少使用量的良好统计信息。 我很好奇这是否是一个问题？
Alex: 亚历克斯：That’s still an issue here, but, like I said, I think both Google and Facebook are realizing that is an issue. I think when we — and by we I mean publishers at large, not just us — I think when both of those services first started up, they saw a significant dip in what our respective audience measurement tools were registering, and we can tell, Okay, this is because they’re just not registering Instant Articles or AMP yet.
这仍然是一个问题，但是，就像我说的那样，我认为Google和Facebook都意识到这是一个问题。 我认为，当我们-我们的意思是广大发行者，而不仅仅是我们-我认为，当这两种服务首次启动时，他们都看到各自受众测量工具的注册量大幅度下降，我们可以知道， 好的，这是因为他们还没有注册Instant Articles或AMP。
I think the tools — the measurement tools — and also Google and Facebook are doing a good job of addressing that problem. So, obviously, that sort of information is our lifeblood. We need to know how many people are on our site. We need to know who those people are, so on and so forth. Not who they are specifically, but who they are in terms of where they’re coming from and things like that, how they’re finding our articles. It’s incredibly helpful to have that information, as you might understand and acknowledge.
我认为这些工具-测量工具-以及Google和Facebook在解决该问题方面都做得很好。 因此，显然，这类信息是我们的命脉。 我们需要知道我们网站上的人数。 我们需要知道那些人是谁，等等。 不是他们具体是谁，而是他们是谁，来自何处以及诸如此类，以及他们如何找到我们的文章。 正如您可能理解和认可的那样，拥有这些信息非常有用。
Tim: 蒂姆：I think we can definitely see speed as being one of the core things that helps your industry in terms of user retention. But certainly, I have seen a little of, I wouldn’t say tension when hearing about AMP or Facebook Instant Articles, only because it sort of brings this content under the ownership of two major domains, Facebook or Google. Does your industry at all worry about Google or Facebook pretty much owning this new platform that you’re using to publish what should be open and accessible information?
我认为我们绝对可以将速度视为可在您的用户保留方面帮助您的行业的核心要素之一。 但是可以肯定的是，在听到有关AMP或Facebook Instant Articles的消息时，我不会说紧张，只是因为它使该内容归Facebook或Google这两个主要域所有。 您所在的行业是否完全担心Google或Facebook拥有此新平台，而您正使用该新平台发布应公开和可访问的信息？
Alex: 亚历克斯：Yeah, I think that’s a concern. We’re very clearly going from a totally open web to one that’s dominated that by these platforms. It’s almost coming back full circle to that walled garden experience of AOL, so on and so forth. At the same time, I think you’re seeing a little bit of worry about that, but there’s also an acknowledgement that these guys are the biggest players in terms of distribution and getting our content in front of people’s eyes. So, you have to play ball with them to some extent.
是的，我认为这是一个问题。 很明显，我们正在从一个完全开放的网站转变为以这些平台为主导的网站。 几乎要回到AOL的围墙花园体验了，等等。 同时，我认为您对此感到有些担忧，但同时也承认，这些人在发行和获得我们的内容方面是最大的参与者。 因此，您必须在某种程度上和他们一起打球。
There’s also, correspondingly, a renewed interesting in distribution mechanisms that we control as publishers — newsletters being a really good example of that. I think the newsletter is really the last thing that we as publishers control that’s a distribution mechanism. It’s almost equivalent to the paper boy. It’s like throwing the newspapers in people’s patios. It’s like every morning, here’s out newsletter. Here’s the stuff that we’ve written and stuff that we think you’ll like. That’s why you see publishers do, not only one, but usually multiple newsletters across topics. They drive traffic. People, once they’re done well, the open rate’s usually pretty good. I think that’s why there’s so much interest in that. It’s a matter of balancing out the dominance of Google and Facebook and having something that we still control.
相应地，我们作为发行商控制的发行机制也重新引起了人们的兴趣-新闻通讯就是一个很好的例子。 我认为，新闻通讯确实是我们作为发行商控制的最后一件事，这是一种发行机制。 这几乎等于纸男孩。 就像把报纸扔在人们的露台上一样。 就像每天早晨，这里是时事通讯。 这是我们写的东西，我们认为您会喜欢的东西。 这就是为什么您会看到发布者不仅完成一项，而且通常跨主题发布多个新闻通讯的原因。 他们推动交通。 人们做得好后，打开率通常会很好。 我认为这就是为什么人们对此感兴趣的原因。 这是在平衡Google和Facebook的主导地位并拥有我们仍然可以控制的问题。
David [12:46]: 大卫[12:46] ：I like that you brought that up, because the subscriber model is something that’s the thing that newspapers and magazines were built on years ago. These days I feel like the email newsletter, even though it’s clearly a powerhouse in terms of marketing, it’s kind of the forgotten child of technology. I’m curious how you deal with the technology of making email newsletters compelling?
我喜欢您提出来的原因，因为订户模型是报纸和杂志几年前建立的东西。 这些天来，我感觉就像是电子邮件时事通讯，尽管它显然是营销方面的强者，但它却是被人们遗忘的技术。 我很好奇您如何处理使电子邮件新闻通讯引人注目的技术？
Alex: 亚历克斯：Yeah, again, it comes back to the analytic side of it. The tools that we use show us very clearly when we have the subject line, here’s our open rate and here’s our click-through rate. So, here’s what we can go back the next day and say, Okay, here’s how many people opened this email based on the subject line, and here’s how many people actually clicked these article and whatnot. So, once you get a feel for what does well and why it does well, you start to craft those subject lines and those newsletters to really be optimized for the audience that they’re being received by.
是的，它又回到了分析方面。 当我们有主题行时，我们使用的工具会非常清楚地向我们显示，这是我们的开放率，这是我们的点击率。 所以，这是我们第二天可以说的， 好的，这是根据主题行打开此电子邮件的人数，这实际上是多少人单击了这些文章，并非如此。 因此，一旦您感觉到什么地方做得好以及为什么做得好，就可以开始设计这些主题行和新闻通讯，以针对接收他们的受众进行真正的优化。
David: 大卫：Speaking back to monetization real quick. Sorry to not let this topic go!
说回真正的获利快。 抱歉，不让这个话题走！
Alex: 亚历克斯：No, go ahead.
没有，继续。
David: 大卫：I know there are plenty of online media organizations that still use a subscriber model, where you have a couple of free articles and they you pay us for the rest. Do you see that as a declining trend, or do you think that might something that’s starting to resurface as the subscription model — especially one that something like Netflix provides — becomes more popular?
我知道有很多在线媒体组织仍在使用订户模型，您有几篇免费文章，其余的则由您付费。 您是否认为这是一种下降的趋势，或者您认为随着订阅模式(尤其是Netflix等提供的订阅模式)变得越来越流行，某些事情可能会开始浮出水面吗？
Alex: 亚历克斯：Yeah, I think it’s a matter of experimentation: what works for different brands won’t work for other brands. I think what you’re describing is “metered paywall”, meaning that you might get ten for free, then it starts to hit you with now you have to pay. Really, the core difference between the web and print is that the web is unbundled. You might come across one of our articles from your Twitter feed or whatever, but that doesn’t mean you have to go read a bunch of our other stuff. You can just leave, and most people do. Whereas, when you’re reading a magazine, you pay for that whole package. It’s that bundle of content that you might buy it for the cover story or for one story in particular, but most people will flip through and read other stuff. That’s really a big difference there.
是的，我认为这只是试验问题：适用于不同品牌的产品不适用于其他品牌。 我认为您所描述的是“计量付费专区”，这意味着您可能会免费获得10个，然后您必须付费就开始受到打击。 确实，网络和印刷品之间的核心区别在于网络是不捆绑的。 您可能会从Twitter feed或其他内容中看到我们的其中一篇文章，但这并不意味着您必须阅读大量其他文章。 您可以离开，大多数人都可以。 而当您阅读杂志时，您需要为整个包裹付费。 您可能会购买大量的内容作为封面故事，特别是一个故事，但是大多数人会翻阅其他内容。 那里确实有很大的不同。
I also think that one of the bright spots of the industry to me personally is this experimentation with sites that rely on the subscriber model — that tight subscription model — meaning you can’t access anything without subscribing, and they’re sort of niche interest sites. The information is a really good example of that in a tech space, where it’s writers who are heavily sourced who have scoops — crucial scoops, very often — and really interesting stuff, and absolutely no clickbait or filler material. But they’re charging you — I forgot what they charge, maybe $30 or $40 a year, something like that. It might actually be more than that.
我还认为，对我个人而言，该行业的亮点之一就是对依赖订户模型(即紧密订户模型)的网站进行的试验，这意味着您必须订阅才能访问任何内容，并且它们是一种利基市场网站。 这些信息是在科技领域中的一个很好的例子，那里的信息来源丰富的作家拥有独家新闻–非常重要的独家新闻-以及非常有趣的东西，而且绝对没有点击诱饵或填充材料。 但是他们在向您收费-我忘了他们要收取的费用，大概是每年30或40美元，诸如此类。 实际上可能不止于此。
It’s enough that really the way to do it there — it’s not about ridiculous scale, it’s about just getting enough people to make it a profitable operation. When you’re charging that amount of money, it’s not that many readers. I think that you’ll see a lot of sites sprout up around that model. Will they make ludicrous amounts of money? Probably not, but they’ll have enough to keep the lights on and pay their writers well. I think that’s not a bad place to be.
真正做到这一点的方法就足够了–这不是荒谬的规模，而是要吸引足够的人手使其盈利。 当您收取这笔钱时，读者并不多。 我认为您会看到很多围绕该模型的网站。 他们会赚可笑的钱吗？ 可能不是，但他们将有足够的能力来保持亮起状态并支付作家报酬。 我认为那不是一个坏地方。
Tim: 蒂姆：Yeah, yeah, definitely. I’m also wondering, if you’re trying to run a media organization on a lean start-up model, wherein you have charging for a certain amount of articles but trying to keep your operating costs lean, does at some point the quality of your content start to suffer from that type of model?
是的，是的，当然。 我还想知道，如果您尝试以精益启动模式运营媒体组织，其中您需要为一定数量的文章付费，但尝试使运营成本保持精益，则在某种程度上是否会您的内容开始遭受这种类型的模型困扰？
Alex [16:08]: 亚历克斯[16:08] ：I think you’ve seen that at some places, but I think overall it’s just a matter of using your resources wisely and knowing where to put money and where to put investment. It’s already been a tumultuous year for online media, and I think you’ll see some sites that are not high quality sites suffer in this new age, as the belt tightens, and the winners and losers are divvied out in terms of who’s getting traffic from Facebook and that kind of stuff.
我认为您已经在某些地方看到了这一点，但总的来说，这只是明智地使用您的资源并知道在何处放置资金和在何处进行投资的问题。 对于在线媒体来说，这已经是动荡的一年，我想您会发现，在这个新时代，一些质量不高的网站遭受了损失，随着安全带的紧缩，赢家和输家被分在谁获得流量上来自Facebook之类的东西。
David: 大卫：I appreciate that prestige of having a brand name like Time. I think it gives you the opportunity to push a little further beyond what some places that are really struggling week to week and don’t have a brand name to rely on can do.
我很欣赏拥有诸如Time之类的品牌的声誉。 我认为，这为您提供了一个机会，可以进一步超越一些真正每周都在苦苦挣扎且没有品牌可依赖的地方。
Alex: 亚历克斯：Yeah, building a brand is really one of the hardest things you can do in this industry, and the fact that we’ve got — across the building, across Time Inc. — we’ve got these brands that are instantly recognizable: Sports Illustrated, People, Entertainment Weekly. Ask anybody what these brands represent and what they do, they’ll know. And that’s a huge advantage in the digital era, when it comes to both getting people to see the Time icon on feeds and saying, Okay, I know this is a trusted source. I know they do good work, I’m gonna click this article.
是的，建立品牌确实是您在这个行业中可以做的最难的事情之一，而且事实上，我们在整个建筑，整个时代公司(Time Inc.)都拥有这些品牌，这些品牌可以立即被识别：Sports Illustrated ，人，娱乐周刊。 询问任何人这些品牌代表什么以及他们做什么，他们会知道的。 在数字时代，这是一个巨大的优势，它既可以使人们看到提要上的“时间”图标，又可以说，“ 好的，我知道这是一个值得信赖的来源”。 我知道他们做得很好，我将点击这篇文章。
But also in terms of getting access to news makers. When I call up and say, Hey, I’m Alex from Time, it goes a long way in terms of making the gatekeepers — in terms of PR people and whatnot — understand that this is a person, or a least a brand, who is reputable and is not looking to do some hit piece or whatever it is.
而且还可以访问新闻制作人。 当我打电话说， 嘿，我是《时代》杂志的亚历克斯，在让看门人(就公关人员和其他方面而言)理解这是一个人，或者至少是一个品牌，这有很长的路要走是有信誉的，并且不希望做任何成功的事。
Tim: 蒂姆：Let’s pretend it’s five years from now. Where do you see the web and your industry interacting with it?
让我们假装距离现在已经五年了。 您在哪里看到网络以及您的行业与之互动？
Alex: 亚历克斯：That’s tough. I think, given the trend right now, it does look like we’re headed back towards that walled garden world, where the platforms rule the day. I think there are plenty of people who might loathe that idea, but at the same time, I think a lot of web design — and I might offend some people with this — but really, the problem with the web, from my perspective, is that everything is different. One website doesn’t work the same way as another website, and then they’re all loaded with trackers and cookies and stuff like that. It’s just such a Wild West user experience; whereas, if I’m just in Facebook all day, at least the experience is the same. I know what I’m getting. I know how to use it. It’s more inviting for people who aren’t as savvy.
太难了 我认为，鉴于目前的趋势，看来我们正朝着围墙围墙的花园世界前进，平台统治了这一天。 我认为有很多人可能会讨厌这个想法，但与此同时，我认为很多Web设计-我可能会因此而冒犯某些人-但实际上，从我的角度来看，Web的问题是一切都不同。 一个网站的工作方式与另一个网站不同，然后它们都被加载了跟踪器，Cookie之类的东西。 就是这样的Wild West用户体验； 相反，如果我整天都在Facebook上，至少体验是一样的。 我知道我会得到什么。 我知道怎么用。 对于那些不那么精明的人来说，这更具吸引力。
That’s sad, I think, when you look at the overall ecosystem, I think it’s probably better off to have a parity between the platforms and the open web. I don’t think the open web should go away, or that it will at all, but I definitely think you’re seeing the platforms being the more dominant spot. I think people just flock to that sort of calm cove in a ocean of torment, right?
我认为这很可悲，当您查看整个生态系统时，我认为最好在平台和开放网络之间建立平衡。 我不认为开放的网络应该消失，也不会消失，但是我绝对认为您看到的平台是最主要的位置。 我认为人们正涌向那片在煎熬的海洋中平静的海湾，对吧？
Tim: 蒂姆：I like that you focus on the UX and design issues around this, because I know one of the ways that Time built its reputation — the way that other magazines do — each one has a distinctive look, a distinctive feel, a distinctive style. You pick it up, you know you’re going to be in this magazine and not in that magazine, but at the same time, they all have a table of contents. They all have numbered pages, and it’s a question of finding that balance, I think, between the consistency and the distinctive voice that makes each publication unique.
我喜欢您专注于UX和与此相关的设计问题，因为我知道《时代》树立声誉的一种方式(其他杂志也是如此)，每一种都具有独特的外观，独特的感觉和独特的风格。 您将它捡起来，就知道您将进入这本杂志，而不是该杂志，但是同时，它们都有一个目录。 它们都有编号的页面，我认为这是要在使每本出版物都独一无二的一致性和独特的声音之间找到平衡的问题。
Alex: 亚历克斯：Yeah, totally. I’ll contradict myself a little bit, based on what I just said, but certainly a problem in the platform-driven world for publishers is losing your brand and your voice in that walled garden. Like I said, that icon, if that’s all we’ve got to let somebody know, Hey, this is Time Magazine’s content, does that make it harder for us? I think it might, but I’m not entirely convinced yet.
是的，完全是。 根据我刚才所说，我会有点矛盾，但是对于发布商来说，在平台驱动的世界里肯定有一个问题，就是在这个围墙花园中失去了您的品牌和声音。 就像我说的，那个图标，如果仅是我们要让别人知道的话， 嘿，这是《时代》杂志的内容，这对我们来说更难了吗？ 我认为可以，但是我还不完全相信。
Tim: 蒂姆：It’s a tough point. Of course, a lot of people right now are reading things through third-party readers, and they’ll just suck out the text and suck out the images and then what do you do to distinguish your content from anybody else’s?
这是一个难点。 当然，现在有很多人正在通过第三方阅读器阅读内容，他们只会吸收文本并吸收图像，然后您如何区分自己的内容与其他人呢？
Alex: 亚历克斯：Yeah, that’s when it boils down to having the best written words and having the best videos and that kind of thing. I think that’s a world where we can play in. I think our advantage over a lot of our rivals is that we’re still Time Magazine. We still do really great writing.
是的，那才归结为拥有最佳的书面文字和最佳的视频之类的东西。 我认为这是一个我们可以参与的世界。我认为，与许多竞争对手相比，我们的优势是我们仍然是《时代》杂志。 我们仍然写得很棒。
David [20:04]: 大卫[20:04] ：I think a lot of our listeners would also like to know how they can be part of something that’s that big, because a lot of them are out there struggling, working with smaller companies, trying to build up their own brands, and there’s certainly a lot of cachet associated with being part of an organization like yours. And you got in the door, and you’re working there. That path is a difficult one for people to achieve.
我想我们的许多听众也想知道他们如何成为如此大的一分子的一部分，因为他们中的许多人都在苦苦挣扎，与较小的公司合作，试图建立自己的品牌，而且肯定有一个与成为像您这样的组织的一部分有关的许多声望。 然后您进了门，然后在那儿工作。 这条路是人们难以实现的。
Alex: 亚历克斯：Yeah, I think part of the reason I’m here is just straight-up luck — right place, right time — which I think is either thankfully or sadly how a lot of life works. It’s also a matter of just really putting in the work and networking and getting to know people and that sort of thing. I think, at a place like this, there’s always opportunities. Go look at timeinc.com/careers: we’re always looking to hire people, hire good people. I think it’s just a matter of getting that foot in the door, like you said. It’s just a matter of having the skills, and being in the right place at the right time, I think.
是的，我认为我在这里的部分原因仅仅是运气好-对的地方，对的时间-我认为这是值得庆幸的还是可悲的是很多生活如何运作。 这也只是真正投入工作和建立网络并结识人们和诸如此类的事情。 我认为，在这样的地方，总是有机会。 请访问timeinc.com/careers ：我们一直在寻找雇用人，雇用好人。 我认为这只是像您所说的那样踏进门的问题。 我认为，这只是技能的掌握，并在正确的时间放置在正确的位置。
Tim: 蒂姆：Definitely, definitely. It seems — at least what I’ve learned — is that your industry, from web developers and designers, needs solutions that both make your platform easier to use and make it faster. Am I missing any key facets there? If I wanted to take this back to my industry and say, Here’s how we help the journalism industry, am I missing any points, or do those two pretty much sum it up?
绝对，绝对。 至少从我的经验中学到的是，您所在的行业(来自Web开发人员和设计师)需要的解决方案既要使您的平台更易于使用，又要使它更快。 我是否在那里缺少任何关键方面？ 如果我想把这个问题带回我的行业，然后说： 这是我们如何帮助新闻业 ，我是否遗漏了任何观点，或者这两个观点相加了吗？
Alex: 亚历克斯：No, I think cleaner and faster are the two biggies. There’s a lot of incentive to do otherwise, but I think that’s — from a user perspective, and from an editor’s perspective — I think those are the two things that I think about the most. In terms of CMSs, I think that what I love most is Medium, and I’m really glad to see that grow in terms of not just a blogger’s platform, but a real hardcore CMS.
不，我认为更干净，更快是两个大问题。 否则，会有很多动机，但是我认为-从用户的角度以及从编辑的角度-我认为这是我最想念的两件事。 在CMS方面，我认为我最喜欢的是Medium ，我很高兴看到这种增长不仅是博客平台，而且是真正的核心CMS。
Time Inc. is experimenting with it a little bit. We’ve seen the The Awl move there, a few other major sites. It’s a place that loads fast, and it’s a place that looks clean and is easy to use. And it’s really just about the writing, which I think is really nice.
时代公司正在做一些尝试。 我们已经看到The Awl移至其他主要站点。 这是一个可以快速加载的地方，并且它看起来很干净并且易于使用。 它实际上只是关于写作的，我认为这真的很不错。
David: 大卫：One thing is for certain: the future of the medium is going to be completely … we’re not going to know what to expect. I think things are going to change dramatically as we move forward.
可以肯定的是，媒体的未来将是完全……我们不会知道会发生什么。 我认为随着我们的前进，情况将发生巨大变化。
Alex: 亚历克斯：Yeah, I thinks there’s a sentiment that we are on the other side of a big wave in terms of disruption and what the internet did to publishing. But I think we’re really still — it’s a more turbulent time than a lot of people think and give thought to. There’s still a lot of shaking up left to be done, but I also think, it’s a cliché, but there’s opportunity in crisis. I think it’s a really good time for experimenting in terms of visual design, user experience, but also monetization approaches and business plans, and you’re seeing a lot of really cool stuff being done. Some of it will certainly fail, but it’s failure in the scientific sense of we will learn through this failure, which is always good.
是的，我认为有人认为我们在颠覆性发展以及互联网对出版业的影响方面正处于另一波浪潮的另一端。 但是我认为我们真的还没走–这是一个比许多人思考和思考的时刻更加动荡的时刻。 还有很多事情要做，但我也认为，这是陈词滥调，但仍有危机的机会。 我认为现在是在视觉设计，用户体验以及货币化方法和商业计划方面进行试验的真正好时机，并且您看到很多非常有趣的工作正在完成。 其中一些肯定会失败，但是从科学的意义上讲，这是失败，我们将通过失败来学习，这永远是件好事。
David: 大卫：That’s fantastic. How can our listeners find you, and get in touch with you, and find out more about what you’ve been working on?
这太妙了。 我们的听众如何找到您并与您联系，并进一步了解您的工作？
Alex: 亚历克斯：Yeah, totally, the best thing to do is follow me on Twitter. I’m @alexjamesfitz. I spend most of my day there, and I’ve certainly put all my stuff on there. Drop me a message or DM me if you want to get in touch.
是的，总的来说，最好的办法是在Twitter上关注我。 我是@alexjamesfitz 。 我一整天都在那儿度过，我当然把我所有的东西都放在那儿了。 给我留言或与我联系。
Tim: 蒂姆：Fantastic. Thank you so much, Alex. We really appreciate you coming on the show today.
太棒了 非常感谢Alex。 非常感谢您参加今天的演出。
Alex: 亚历克斯：Definitely, thank you for having me.
绝对要感谢您的邀请。
I definitely learned a lot there. I really wanted to have Alex on the show, just to learn where the publishing industry is at right now, and what they’re looking for what and what they could use from the web development industry itself, especially nowadays wherein journalism online is reaching so many people and having such an amazing effect in different areas. I certainly would love to be someone who can help contribute to that movement.
我肯定在那里学到了很多东西。 我真的很想让Alex参加展览，只是为了了解出版业目前的状况，以及他们在寻找什么以及他们可以从Web开发行业本身中使用什么，特别是在当今在线新闻业如此流行的今天。许多人在不同领域产生了如此惊人的效果。 我当然很想成为能够为这一运动做出贡献的人。
It was exciting to learn how they’re using the web and some of the challenges they’re still facing and looking to get over in the future.
了解他们如何使用网络以及他们仍然面临并希望克服未来的挑战，这真是令人兴奋。
David: 大卫：Absolutely. I think it’s really important for us, we come from the side of the industry where we build these things. We’re the engineers. We’re the designers. We’re the people working on them. It’s really important for us to talk to the customers. In this case, not the customers in terms of the end users who are going to see our products, but the customers being the publishers who are going to make use of those products and put them out there and take advantage of them for making their own messages come alive for their users.
绝对。 我认为这对我们真的很重要，我们来自制造这些产品的行业。 我们是工程师。 我们是设计师。 我们是为他们工作的人。 对我们来说，与客户交流非常重要。 在这种情况下，不是要看最终产品的客户，而是要使用这些产品并将其放到那里并利用它们来制造自己产品的发布者的客户。消息为他们的用户而活跃。
Tim: 蒂姆：Yeah, definitely. I think this is something that’s been growing and really coming to a head now, but it’s interesting to see just how focused the publishing industry is on stats — on how quickly our pages are loading, what our bounce rate is, and how quickly a user gets onto our page, and if it’s too slow for them to read an article, and if they just leave immediately. But, it really tells you just how important fast, well-performing pages are that are just easy to use.
是的，当然。 我认为这是一个正在发展的过程，现在真的很重要，但是有趣的是，看看出版业如何关注统计数据-我们页面的加载速度，跳出率以及用户的速度进入我们的页面，如果他们阅读文章的速度太慢，以及他们是否立即离开。 但是，它确实告诉您，快速易于使用的性能良好的页面有多么重要。
David: 大卫：It’s true. It’s true. We all focus on trying to build those ourselves, because we know how much the users will appreciate them. We sometimes forget that there’s a bottom line criticality to this when it comes to a publisher. And what’s really interesting is for them to be able to see right there, in their statistics, exactly how this much of a difference — this many milliseconds difference — in page load time affects the bottom line for them.
这是真的。 这是真的。 我们所有人都专注于尝试自己构建它们，因为我们知道用户将对它们有多大的赞赏。 有时我们会忘记，对于发布者而言，这是至关重要的。 And what's really interesting is for them to be able to see right there, in their statistics, exactly how this much of a difference — this many milliseconds difference — in page load time affects the bottom line for them.
Tim: 蒂姆：Yeah, definitely. As web developers, I don’t think it should be too much of a challenge for us to deliver fast pages. One thing I didn’t get a chance to ask: a lot of those requests for trackers and cookies and other JavaScripts that throw in ads, that stuff comes from a different … there’s no web developer sitting there saying, Let me add some ads and trackers onto this thing. That stuff comes from heads of business and stakeholders who want more ad revenue and more insight into what their users are doing. But there definitely are ways where you can still load those things — you can still accomplish the business goals — and develop really good, fast publishing tools.
是的，当然。 As web developers, I don't think it should be too much of a challenge for us to deliver fast pages. One thing I didn't get a chance to ask: a lot of those requests for trackers and cookies and other JavaScripts that throw in ads, that stuff comes from a different … there's no web developer sitting there saying, Let me add some ads and trackers onto this thing. That stuff comes from heads of business and stakeholders who want more ad revenue and more insight into what their users are doing. But there definitely are ways where you can still load those things — you can still accomplish the business goals — and develop really good, fast publishing tools.
I think a major hang-up there is, number one, it’s not as easy. A lot more thought has to go into the platforms that you’re building. Number two, it just takes a little bit longer. So, you can’t just use the latest framework, and just release something really quick, and then move on to your next thing. There’s a lot of forethought and planning that needs to go into it.
I think a major hang-up there is, number one, it's not as easy. A lot more thought has to go into the platforms that you're building. Number two, it just takes a little bit longer. So, you can't just use the latest framework, and just release something really quick, and then move on to your next thing. There's a lot of forethought and planning that needs to go into it.
David: 大卫：I wonder if advertisers should be paying by latency? Like, when a publisher puts their ad on the site, I know right now they’ll say you can have this maximum this dimension. It can take this long to play. It can loop this many times, et cetera. I wonder if they could charge the advertisers based on the latency introduced by creating that ad and slowing the down the page by that much. It’s certainly something that we can track.
I wonder if advertisers should be paying by latency? Like, when a publisher puts their ad on the site, I know right now they'll say you can have this maximum this dimension. It can take this long to play. It can loop this many times, et cetera . I wonder if they could charge the advertisers based on the latency introduced by creating that ad and slowing the down the page by that much. It's certainly something that we can track.
Tim: 蒂姆：It definitely makes sense from a cost perspective. That is definitely something you would want to charge for. If your ad is going to be displayed on our page, and it’s going to take a second to load, we’re going to charge you $1000 a second! Especially if the ad is intrusive. Nothing is more infuriating from a user’s perspective, when you are scrolling through and then ten seconds later this giant thing just comes up and pushes the content down, and you’re kind of lost. You’re trying to find the X button on this weird ad for something you probably don’t even care about. That would be very interesting to charge based on that level, because it gets everybody in the equation thinking, What is this actually doing to the person who’s just there trying to view the content?
It definitely makes sense from a cost perspective. That is definitely something you would want to charge for. If your ad is going to be displayed on our page, and it's going to take a second to load, we're going to charge you $1000 a second! Especially if the ad is intrusive. Nothing is more infuriating from a user's perspective, when you are scrolling through and then ten seconds later this giant thing just comes up and pushes the content down, and you're kind of lost. You're trying to find the X button on this weird ad for something you probably don't even care about. That would be very interesting to charge based on that level, because it gets everybody in the equation thinking, What is this actually doing to the person who's just there trying to view the content?
David: 大卫：That would also encourage the developers who are working at those ad agencies to focus on those issues, because that might not be the priority for them right now. They might be more focused on I want higher-quality images so that people can really see the gradient on the label on this can of tomatoes.
That would also encourage the developers who are working at those ad agencies to focus on those issues, because that might not be the priority for them right now. They might be more focused on I want higher-quality images so that people can really see the gradient on the label on this can of tomatoes.
Tim [27:52]: Tim [27:52] :Yeah, and I think that’s because the industry isn’t stacked against them to where they have to make those considerations. No one has said, Oh, your ad needs to load this fast, and it’s needs to be this performant. Everyone just says you have this 250 by 250 square. The most now is no Flash, but nobody is saying this 250 by 250 square, and make there are responsive images in there, make sure it’s fast, make sure you’re not introducing an extra JavaScript library onto the page.
Yeah, and I think that's because the industry isn't stacked against them to where they have to make those considerations. No one has said, Oh, your ad needs to load this fast, and it's needs to be this performant. Everyone just says you have this 250 by 250 square. The most now is no Flash, but nobody is saying this 250 by 250 square, and make there are responsive images in there, make sure it's fast, make sure you're not introducing an extra JavaScript library onto the page.
It’s weird that that hasn’t happened, because you would think, as an advertiser, you would really want your ad to deliver the best possible quality while being the fastest, because you don’t want your ad network or your ads to be the reason that someone is bouncing on a page. You certainly want your ad to get the most clicks, so you’re going to want something that loads up quickly, is seamless, not too intrusive, and just doesn’t force the user to bounce.
It's weird that that hasn't happened, because you would think, as an advertiser, you would really want your ad to deliver the best possible quality while being the fastest, because you don't want your ad network or your ads to be the reason that someone is bouncing on a page. You certainly want your ad to get the most clicks, so you're going to want something that loads up quickly, is seamless, not too intrusive, and just doesn't force the user to bounce.
David: 大卫：I think that that speaks to what Alex was talking about about the distinctions between interruption advertising, like what we’re talking about right now, and native advertising, where the content and the ads merge together, and it’s difficult for the user to even distinguish between which part of this is the ad and which part of this is what I was actually here because I wanted to read it. It’s a challenging thing, and I know publishers are struggling with that. I know Alex was talking a little bit also about the integrity of publishing things that are supporting ads and supported by ads and then actually become the ads. In that case, there is no interruption, and there is no separate latency to charge for.
I think that that speaks to what Alex was talking about about the distinctions between interruption advertising, like what we're talking about right now, and native advertising, where the content and the ads merge together, and it's difficult for the user to even distinguish between which part of this is the ad and which part of this is what I was actually here because I wanted to read it. It's a challenging thing, and I know publishers are struggling with that. I know Alex was talking a little bit also about the integrity of publishing things that are supporting ads and supported by ads and then actually become the ads. In that case, there is no interruption, and there is no separate latency to charge for.
Tim: 蒂姆：Yeah, it’s tough, too, because when you have sponsored content like that, I know in my head I always think, Oh, this is sponsored content, so this is less meaningful to me. I’m trying to think of what it is that causes me to have that thought. I think that’s a tough challenge to get over.
Yeah, it's tough, too, because when you have sponsored content like that, I know in my head I always think, Oh, this is sponsored content, so this is less meaningful to me. I'm trying to think of what it is that causes me to have that thought. I think that's a tough challenge to get over.
When you see something, for example, Netflix, a visual interactive article talking about Narcos, it’s sponsored by Netflix with a show of the same title. When I come across that, I’m going to think to myself, Oh, well this is sort of like just a puff piece, and money changed hands, and therefore it’s not really that interesting to me. I always want to suggest, Well, maybe money changes hands, but you don’t make it as obvious. Then there’s moral repercussions, because the user, or the reader, isn’t fully aware that it’s sponsored content. Then there’s a journalistic integrity problem that arises as of that. I don’t know, do you feel the same way when you see sponsored content?
When you see something, for example, Netflix, a visual interactive article talking about Narcos, it's sponsored by Netflix with a show of the same title. When I come across that, I'm going to think to myself, Oh, well this is sort of like just a puff piece, and money changed hands, and therefore it's not really that interesting to me. I always want to suggest, Well, maybe money changes hands, but you don't make it as obvious. Then there's moral repercussions, because the user, or the reader, isn't fully aware that it's sponsored content. Then there's a journalistic integrity problem that arises as of that. I don't know, do you feel the same way when you see sponsored content?
David: 大卫：I do. These days I’ll watch a James Bond movie, and I’m thinking, This is just a big car advertisement, isn’t it? It’s tough to figure out where to draw the line, because companies will send free computers to a production company with the expectation that some of those computers will show up on screen, and maybe even with the explicit contract that we’re giving you this many free computers and we want this much screen time showing the logo, not showing the logo. Does it become, this is not really a show that I’m watching, but this is an advertisement couched in a show, and do I really care?
我做。 These days I'll watch a James Bond movie, and I'm thinking, This is just a big car advertisement, isn't it? It's tough to figure out where to draw the line, because companies will send free computers to a production company with the expectation that some of those computers will show up on screen, and maybe even with the explicit contract that we're giving you this many free computers and we want this much screen time showing the logo, not showing the logo. Does it become, this is not really a show that I'm watching, but this is an advertisement couched in a show, and do I really care?
Tim: 蒂姆：Yeah, and I think it’s a problem that would be an interesting one and is one that I think web developers and designers alike should be motivated to help solve. Because we are the ones who benefit from publishers doing well and being able to make money off of the web. I don’t have to turn on the news anymore. Every single bit of information I ever want is either on Twitter or a newsletter that I’m subscribed to, or on Time or Quartz or Vice or any of them. I think, if that’s something that I want to continue — and I definitely do — then I should be interested in helping to solve this problem. How do we help these publishers to monetize while still keeping the interest of the readers and the visitors.
Yeah, and I think it's a problem that would be an interesting one and is one that I think web developers and designers alike should be motivated to help solve. Because we are the ones who benefit from publishers doing well and being able to make money off of the web. I don't have to turn on the news anymore. Every single bit of information I ever want is either on Twitter or a newsletter that I'm subscribed to, or on Time or Quartz or Vice or any of them. I think, if that's something that I want to continue — and I definitely do — then I should be interested in helping to solve this problem. How do we help these publishers to monetize while still keeping the interest of the readers and the visitors.
I think that’s something — and again, that’s one of the reasons that I wanted to have Alex on — I think that’s a problem that we can both help solve and that we should want to help solve.
I think that's something — and again, that's one of the reasons that I wanted to have Alex on — I think that's a problem that we can both help solve and that we should want to help solve.
David [32:08]: 大卫[32:08] ：Monetization is definitely the issue of the day when it comes to publishing. It was clear, he mentioned that several times and came back to it several times. We’re talking about advertising, but basically what we’re talking about is monetization, as you point out. It’s a question of what people are willing to pay for, and whether the content merits that kind of monetization.
Monetization is definitely the issue of the day when it comes to publishing. It was clear, he mentioned that several times and came back to it several times. We're talking about advertising, but basically what we're talking about is monetization, as you point out. It's a question of what people are willing to pay for, and whether the content merits that kind of monetization.
Then again, we live in a country where the freedom of the press is something that has to be independent of sponsors and government paying for things. So, we as consumers do have to pay for that stuff in order to get something that really is free from that kind of bias.
Then again, we live in a country where the freedom of the press is something that has to be independent of sponsors and government paying for things. So, we as consumers do have to pay for that stuff in order to get something that really is free from that kind of bias.
Tim: 蒂姆：Yeah, I see that. I see that. Yeah, it’s an interesting problem. If anybody has ideas, let’s work on something. Let’s think of a way to improve it and make it better.
Yeah, I see that. I see that. Yeah, it's an interesting problem. If anybody has ideas, let's work on something. Let's think of a way to improve it and make it better.
I know I subscribed to National Geographic Magazine, not because I had a burning desire to read National Geographic. It was really just because I followed them on Instagram, and I kept on seeing the most amazing, breathtaking pictures I’ve ever seen in my life. Things I would’ve never even thought to say, Hey, I wonder what that looks like — like a remote waterfall frozen in some area that you can’t pronounce or even point out on a map.
I know I subscribed to National Geographic Magazine, not because I had a burning desire to read National Geographic. It was really just because I followed them on Instagram, and I kept on seeing the most amazing, breathtaking pictures I've ever seen in my life. Things I would've never even thought to say, Hey, I wonder what that looks like — like a remote waterfall frozen in some area that you can't pronounce or even point out on a map.
I thought to myself, I want to give money to the people that are doing this, because it’s such an amazing and explorative effort. I almost wonder if maybe something like that is possible — it’s a model that other organizations can follow. Like, Hey, if you like our coverage, here’s where you can send us money to help make that coverage possible. I know that’s a privileged effort. That’s something I can do because I can afford it, but I can do it.
I thought to myself, I want to give money to the people that are doing this, because it's such an amazing and explorative effort. I almost wonder if maybe something like that is possible — it's a model that other organizations can follow. Like, Hey, if you like our coverage, here's where you can send us money to help make that coverage possible. I know that's a privileged effort. That's something I can do because I can afford it, but I can do it.
There are certainly media organizations out there that, if it was available, I would be more than happy to give money for it. I know I’m of the mind already, because I’m not someone who uses ad blocker. I think if you’re going to be putting the content out there and not charging me for it, you have to make money somehow. There, of course, is overly intrusive tracking and outright stealing of information, but I think in some cases, advertising is a necessity, however much we don’t like it. But I think we can make it better. If there’s somebody out there that wants money to continue putting out good content, I’m certainly happy to give it.
There are certainly media organizations out there that, if it was available, I would be more than happy to give money for it. I know I'm of the mind already, because I'm not someone who uses ad blocker. I think if you're going to be putting the content out there and not charging me for it, you have to make money somehow. There, of course, is overly intrusive tracking and outright stealing of information, but I think in some cases, advertising is a necessity, however much we don't like it. But I think we can make it better. If there's somebody out there that wants money to continue putting out good content, I'm certainly happy to give it.
David: 大卫：I think that it’d be great to get some people involved in that conversation. We should have them tweet us @versioningshow and get the conversation going, because I can tell you, even within this one conversation, you’re in the minority.
I think that it'd be great to get some people involved in that conversation. We should have them tweet us @versioningshow and get the conversation going, because I can tell you, even within this one conversation, you're in the minority.
Tim: 蒂姆：[Laughing] Yes.
[Laughing] Yes.
David: 大卫：Not only do I use an ad blocker, I use Ghostery. I will block and block and block, and then I’ll read everything through Clearly from Evernote. I want to get my content as refined as possible from the context of advertising, but that’s me. Different people have different approaches.
Not only do I use an ad blocker, I use Ghostery . I will block and block and block, and then I'll read everything through Clearly from Evernote. I want to get my content as refined as possible from the context of advertising, but that's me. Different people have different approaches.
The things is that the industry, the publishers, should not have to rely on the altruism of people of privilege going out there and saying, Yes, I want to support your publication, and so I’m going to send you some money. When you get to that position, then you start to have to look at, OK, National Geographic, let me see, that’s published by Rupert Murdoch, and I want to give him some money because I really love the publication.
The things is that the industry, the publishers, should not have to rely on the altruism of people of privilege going out there and saying, Yes, I want to support your publication, and so I'm going to send you some money. When you get to that position, then you start to have to look at, OK, National Geographic, let me see, that's published by Rupert Murdoch, and I want to give him some money because I really love the publication.
Where do you draw the line on something like that. How much research should a consumer have to do before figuring out what they want to support. Ideally, the publication itself should be so compelling, and the content should be so rewarding, that there’s value to the user in paying for it. How that value is added in such a way that the publication doesn’t have to hide its content, put itself behind a paywall, and yet somehow compel the user to find it more convenient to pay for access, than to go through a non-paid technique such ad blockers, or whatever, in order to get direct access to that content. That’s a challenge for us as engineers and designers to create those platforms, that medium through which a publisher can say, Yes, I’ll give you my content, and you can find out about it. It’s more convenient if you support me because of this, this and this. What’s the answer to this, this and this?
Where do you draw the line on something like that. How much research should a consumer have to do before figuring out what they want to support. Ideally, the publication itself should be so compelling, and the content should be so rewarding, that there's value to the user in paying for it. How that value is added in such a way that the publication doesn't have to hide its content, put itself behind a paywall, and yet somehow compel the user to find it more convenient to pay for access, than to go through a non-paid technique such ad blockers, or whatever, in order to get direct access to that content. That's a challenge for us as engineers and designers to create those platforms, that medium through which a publisher can say, Yes, I'll give you my content, and you can find out about it. It's more convenient if you support me because of this, this and this. What's the answer to this, this and this?
Tim: 蒂姆：No, that’s extremely well put and very eloquent. I like what you said about the altruism of privileged people that very much describes me very well. I’m not afraid to admit. That being said, I think we’ve covered some really, really interesting topics today, and we definitely want to hear from all of you.
No, that's extremely well put and very eloquent. I like what you said about the altruism of privileged people that very much describes me very well. I'm not afraid to admit. That being said, I think we've covered some really, really interesting topics today, and we definitely want to hear from all of you.
David: 大卫：Cool. So, folks, tweet us @versioningshow. Get in touch, and let us know what you thought of this show. We’re going to try to bring on some more people who are not directly involved in the development of the web, but fundamentally affected by all of the work that we’re doing. Because, frankly, this is a back-and-forth, and we need to be aware of how the tools and products and the technologies that we’re developing affect the customers out there who are really using them.
凉。 So, folks, tweet us @versioningshow. Get in touch, and let us know what you thought of this show. We're going to try to bring on some more people who are not directly involved in the development of the web, but fundamentally affected by all of the work that we're doing. Because, frankly, this is a back-and-forth, and we need to be aware of how the tools and products and the technologies that we're developing affect the customers out there who are really using them.
Tim: 蒂姆：Very well put. I’m going to say it again, even though you already said it. Thank you so much for listening, and we always enjoy getting to talk technology with all of you.
Very well put. I'm going to say it again, even though you already said it. Thank you so much for listening, and we always enjoy getting to talk technology with all of you.
David: 大卫：We would also like to thank SitePoint.com, and our producers, Adam Roberts and Ophelie Lechat. Please feel free to send us your comments on Twitter — @versioningshow — and give us a rating on iTunes and let us know how we’re doing.
We would also like to thank SitePoint.com , and our producers, Adam Roberts and Ophelie Lechat. Please feel free to send us your comments on Twitter — @versioningshow — and give us a rating on iTunes and let us know how we're doing.
Tim: 蒂姆：We’ll see you next time, and we hope you enjoyed this version.
下次见，我们希望您喜欢这个版本。
翻译自: https://www.sitepoint.com/versioning-podcast-episode-10-with-alex-fitzpatrick/
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